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XSi and the D80
Although the recent review of the Canon 450d at digitalcamerareview.com makes me wonder just how crazy I am, maybe some more experienced digital photographers can help me out:.

I've been obsessing over the new XSi and the Nikon D80, trying to figure out which one would be better as a first DSLR for me..

On Imaging Resource, I have scrutinized the ISO 1600 comparisons and, although it seems that the Canon retains more detail (in the white pattern on the beige-ish fabric, particularly), I have to ask - is the Canon really far and away the better camera here? I don't see these differences to be too radical..

But, I'm a novice and I've only printed at 8x10 before from a 6mp camera. Maybe more experienced folks can help me out. Are the differences in IQ (anywhere in the range) between the XSi and the D80 significant enough that I'd notice them right away on a 16x24 print (the largest I plan to print) without invading the print's personal space - especially given that I will shoot in RAW and do some PP?.

Otherwise - it seems to me that there isn't much that the D80 can do that the XSi can't do even if it takes an extra button press on the XSi to do it (excepting the D80's wireless flash triggering). Is this also true, or would the D80 really be a better tool than the XSi?.

In short, am I crazy?.

Thanks for any help.....

Comments (22)

I'll answer your last question first: Yes, you are crazy. .

Either camera will make fine pix. Have you held either one of them? Have you used either one to take pix?.

The biggest difference is the ergonomics and the human interface..

ErikInCO wrote:.

Although the recent review of the Canon 450d atdigitalcamerareview.com makes me wonder just how crazy I am, maybesome more experienced digital photographers can help me out:.

I've been obsessing over the new XSi and the Nikon D80, trying tofigure out which one would be better as a first DSLR for me..

On Imaging Resource, I have scrutinized the ISO 1600 comparisons and,although it seems that the Canon retains more detail (in the whitepattern on the beige-ish fabric, particularly), I have to ask - isthe Canon really far and away the better camera here? I don't seethese differences to be too radical..

But, I'm a novice and I've only printed at 8x10 before from a 6mpcamera. Maybe more experienced folks can help me out. Are thedifferences in IQ (anywhere in the range) between the XSi and the D80significant enough that I'd notice them right away on a 16x24 print(the largest I plan to print) without invading the print's personalspace - especially given that I will shoot in RAW and do some PP?.

Otherwise - it seems to me that there isn't much that the D80 can dothat the XSi can't do even if it takes an extra button press on theXSi to do it (excepting the D80's wireless flash triggering). Isthis also true, or would the D80 really be a better tool than the XSi?.

In short, am I crazy?.

Thanks for any help....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #1

LOL, I suspected that I was crazy. Thanks for your response. I have held both and both feel good in my hands, both have lens systems that have their pluses and minuses, and both seem to do what I want them to do. I was secretly hoping the high ISO image quality was going to be some sort of deciding factor. Ah well... time to put my money down and live with it..

Thanks again..

Comment #2

There is another approach to making a decision. Spend some time lurking on their respective dpr forums. You will find that one brand attracts a higher number of OTHER crazy people...you will fit in better there. .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #3

My personal opinion (fanboy of neither) & I own a Nikon E7600 (P&S on last legs) is the Canons are lighter than the rest but at the cost of durability. The Canon XSi feels like cheap plastic compared to the Nikon or Pentax..

Had the very same question, my dad bought the Pentax K10D. I think I've shot more with it than he has, so I think I will wind up getting that one or the 20D....

Canon lenses, esp. the IS, seem quite pricey, IMO.'OOOOOH, they have the Internet on computers now!' Homer J. Simpson..

Comment #4

ErikInCO wrote:.

On Imaging Resource, I have scrutinized the ISO 1600 comparisons and,although it seems that the Canon retains more detail (in the whitepattern on the beige-ish fabric, particularly), I have to ask - isthe Canon really far and away the better camera here? I don't seethese differences to be too radical..

Whenever in doubt, go with the recent product (XSi). (There may be a D90 lurking around the horizon. And you will kick your but if it really is)..

Now don't get me wrong. Both are good enough to lead you to vacillate. Hence rest assured. You won't feel limited..

But, I'm a novice and I've only printed at 8x10 before from a 6mpcamera. Maybe more experienced folks can help me out. Are thedifferences in IQ (anywhere in the range) between the XSi and the D80significant enough that I'd notice them right away on a 16x24 print(the largest I plan to print) without invading the print's personalspace - especially given that I will shoot in RAW and do some PP?.

That incremental resolution, dust reduction, live view, improved viewfinder will enhance your comfort zone..

Otherwise - it seems to me that there isn't much that the D80 can dothat the XSi can't do even if it takes an extra button press on theXSi to do it (excepting the D80's wireless flash triggering). Isthis also true, or would the D80 really be a better tool than the XSi?.

The person behind camera matters the most. And also the lens in front . So account for that also.Best Wishes, Ajayhttp://picasaweb.google.com/ajay0612Thanks for visiting and leaving comments ..

Comment #5

Hi,.

Like you I was trying to figure XSi or Nikon D80 or D60. As stated by other, you really cant go wrong with either camera..

I just bought the Rebel XSi and love it, but Im sure Id love the D80 as well. There were 3 things that really pushed me to the Canon..

1> The Rebel XSi is new, the D80 might be ready for an update.2> The Rebel felt slightly better in my hands.. Personal choice3> Most of my friends/coworkers have canons& (I can borrow lenses).

Ok 4 things, to my eyes, I like the look of canon images over Nikon& but you will fine others that say they prefer Nikon over Canon& so another personal choice..

Oh as for comments about it being "light" or cheap feeling, well I personally like the low weight. I took the Xsi out hiking in Death Valley, was very happy to not have a heavy camera in my hands all day as I went on a 10 mile hike. Also dont underestimate todays plastic technology. But I do admit, it does feel a bit low end, but considering how fast technology changes, with in 4 or 5 years the camera will be obsolete. So, think about the system If you buy a few lenses, then replace the camera in 5 years, do you want to replace all the lenses. So I personally bought into a brand too.



Good luck..

Jonathan S..

Comment #6

Thanks all for the responses. Maybe DPR's review of the XSi will be out soon and will push me over the edge one way or another. I guess we all can hope!..

Comment #7

Ajay0612 wrote:.

Now don't get me wrong. Both are good enough to lead you tovacillate..

This is incomplete advice! First, never vacillate in isolation...get a friend and vacillate together. Second, get some vacillation cream...it makes it easier and SO much more pleasurable. If you can afford it, get a flavored cream... .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #8

Why should the review matter. they are both capable cameras as are others, go to the store, handle them, decide and pay the man. think how many pictures you will miss while waiting for that last bit of validation, FUD, insight, opinion, whatever you want to call it....

There are plenty of great cameras available, buy one and start shooting it really is that simple as any of them will do the job quite well, even one's you haven't mentioned...

Comment #9

Freealfas, that's true, but as someone who considers this a long-term investment in the body (because my budget won't let me swap them out until the far distant future), the glass, and learning photography, I don't think it's unreasonable to see whether either body would have any significant, visible differences in the quality of the higher-ISO pictures and prints. Ideally I'd just get fantastic f/1.2 or 1.8 or 2.8 lenses, but that's out of my budget..

It sounds like neither camera will be radically different in practice, but I'm not experienced with DSLRs so there's no way I can know what's true for them in practice versus what's true in theory..

That's why I was wondering whether, in the real world, the seemingly greater level of detail on the Canon would actually make a difference in big prints from a reasonable viewing distance, and I can't test this for myself without spending $60 for some large prints of the test photos that I could have put toward a lens, a hood, memory cards or whatever..

I'm guessing it would make approximately 0 difference on smaller prints, but one of the reasons I want to get a DSLR is to be able to print much larger after I learn enough to make good, interesting photographs over the long term, and I don't see myself being able to afford something more like a 5D, D300, D3, and especially not a 1DsIII. Hence the desire to get the absolute most bang for the buck I can now..

Anyway, I hope that helps to explain why I am concerned about image quality and reviews and whatnot. It's only one consideration among others, but it's important for me..

Thanks for the comments at any rate...

Comment #10

ErikInCO wrote:.

Freealfas, that's true, but as someone who considers this a long-terminvestment in the body (because my budget won't let me swap them outuntil the far distant future), the glass, and learning photography, Idon't think it's unreasonable to see whether either body would haveany significant, visible differences in the quality of the higher-ISOpictures and prints..

And then what happens next the d80 replacement is announced and now you have to wait for that review to see if and how much the d90 trumps the xsi. you'll be chasing your tail and missing A LOT of photographs all for what reason, giving that much credence to the reviews and the actual differences. at some point you have to leap like the rest of us did..

You're not the only one who does this for the long haul, you're not the only one who can't afford each and every new body that come out(I can't). the point is you'll just sit posting here about what if and microscopic specification differences and not taking pictures starting your learning curve and the craft..

It sounds like neither camera will be radically different inpractice, but I'm not experienced with DSLRs so there's no way I canknow what's true for them in practice versus what's true in theory..

You've answered your own question then. if you are not experienced then how will you know what differences are enough to make this big decision on. you have received sage advice from people here that have more experience than you and me for that matter..

That's why I was wondering whether, in the real world, the seeminglygreater level of detail on the Canon would actually make a differencein big prints from a reasonable viewing distance, and I can't testthis for myself without spending $60 for some large prints of thetest photos that I could have put toward a lens, a hood, memory cardsor whatever..

I can make big prints from a 5mp E1 that came out in 2001/2(?) as can others that shoot a d40, as others that shoot a xt. etc. you are splitting atoms at this point, not even hairs. given the right conditions you can take most of these and other "older" cameras and make images that would rival either of the 2 you are considering despite their newness..

I'm guessing it would make approximately 0 difference on smallerprints, but one of the reasons I want to get a DSLR is to be able toprint much larger after I learn enough to make good, interestingphotographs over the long term, and I don't see myself being able toafford something more like a 5D, D300, D3, and especially not a1DsIII. Hence the desire to get the absolute most bang for the buckI can now..

I'd argue your bang for the buck could be served by other makes/models and that's not to say the d80/xsi are not great choices, they just don't register on the bang for the buck scale for me IMO but there's no reason to go there as that isn't the point of this..

Anyway, I hope that helps to explain why I am concerned about imagequality and reviews and whatnot. It's only one consideration amongothers, but it's important for me..

Not once does anyone argue with that as the rest of us like our IQ as well, not just you. it just seems you are not seeing the forest through the trees despite the advice forwarded. there is no wrong answer and there is no right answer. pick a budget, understand the pros/cons of the different cameras which you seem to do already, handle them in a store to get a feel for use and ergo's and the rest works itself out as you shoot and learn..

Thanks for the comments at any rate..

Again, good luck, there simply is no answer to be scared of in any of this as the cameras form ALL of the manufacturer's in capable hands can produce amazing images. if you want to be scared of anything it'll be the thought's about how to spend money on kit as you learn more and how to sneak the new lens in the house when no one notices.... lol..

Comment #11

Hi Freealfas,.

I feel like I've somehow aggravated you with my post, which was definitely not it's intent. I was just trying to explain my personal dilemma, and I half-seriously mentioned the review because my question about high-ISO prints wasn't directly addressed, although your comment about enlargement and Jonathan Sauer's about the subjectivity of the final look of Canon vs. Nikon images helped put my mind at ease..

Freealfas wrote:.

You're not the only one who does this for the long haul, you're notthe only one who can't afford each and every new body that come out(Ican't). the point is you'll just sit posting here about what if andmicroscopic specification differences and not taking picturesstarting your learning curve and the craft..

I didn't mean to suggest that I was the only one doing this, but it apparently came across that way, so I apologize for my poor expression .

It sounds like neither camera will be radically different inpractice, but I'm not experienced with DSLRs so there's no way I canknow what's true for them in practice versus what's true in theory..

You've answered your own question then. if you are not experiencedthen how will you know what differences are enough to make this bigdecision on. you have received sage advice from people here thathave more experience than you and me for that matter..

I probably won't ever really know, but I was just trying to address one consideration (higher ISO prints rather than pixel peeping) so that I could more accurately weigh that with all the other factors that I personally will be taking into the account for the camera, even if I have no idea right now whether they're the right factors to consider..

Anyway, I hope that helps to explain why I am concerned about imagequality and reviews and whatnot. It's only one consideration amongothers, but it's important for me..

Not once does anyone argue with that as the rest of us like our IQ aswell, not just you. it just seems you are not seeing the forestthrough the trees despite the advice forwarded. there is no wronganswer and there is no right answer. pick a budget, understand thepros/cons of the different cameras which you seem to do already,handle them in a store to get a feel for use and ergo's and the restworks itself out as you shoot and learn..

I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, and what I was hoping to do with the original post was just what you suggested - trying to understand whether what people say about Canon's Rebels' high ISO performance really translates to big visible differences in print - or whether this is a significant "pro" in print for Canon that I ought to understand when making my decision. So your comment about enlargements from older cameras helps me get a feel for that. Unfortunately it seems that something derailed in between my question in my head and my pressing the post button..

Thanks for the comments at any rate..

Again, good luck, there simply is no answer to be scared of in any ofthis as the cameras form ALL of the manufacturer's in capable handscan produce amazing images. if you want to be scared of anythingit'll be the thought's about how to spend money on kit as you learnmore and how to sneak the new lens in the house when no onenotices.... lol.

Lol, I can only hope that I get a light case of Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS)...

Comment #12

Good day ErikInCO.

I feel like I've somehow aggravated you with my post, which wasdefinitely not it's intent. I was just trying to explain my personaldilemma, and I half-seriously mentioned the review because myquestion about high-ISO prints wasn't directly addressed, althoughyour comment about enlargement and Jonathan Sauer's about thesubjectivity of the final look of Canon vs. Nikon images helped putmy mind at ease..

Not aggravated as much as just trying to get across the idea that you can wait for this review or that review and they will find the pros/cons of whatever they are considering sending you into the next round of doubt about what you are going to go with..

For you the minute level of differences between the 2 cameras you are talking about to a beginner you call yourself are rarely if ever going to matter to you as you learn the process..

I didn't mean to suggest that I was the only one doing this, but itapparently came across that way, so I apologize for my poorexpression .

No reason for apologies my point was simply that those questions we all face and make our own conclusions about what direction we are going to take and be happy with. for the 2 cameras you are considering you will have no issue with the IQ of either..

I probably won't ever really know, but I was just trying to addressone consideration (higher ISO prints rather than pixel peeping) sothat I could more accurately weigh that with all the other factorsthat I personally will be taking into the account for the camera,even if I have no idea right now whether they're the right factors toconsider..

Higher ISO is the next "mp" war buzzword for everyone to grab onto and compare. Is it a consideration, sure, are there differences, sure. unless you are shooting a lot of low light subjects it really won't matter. if you are then it starts to come into play. if the images are that close on a monitor then that applies to the prints as well. there is an art to printing that will unfold as you learn.

The other as to really not matter at this point which direction you go..

If I were you I'd be more worried about glass which you haven't mentioned once. I'd be not happy about not having in body IS and having that be a consideration as whether I want canon/nikon to take more money from me over time with each and every lens decision faced with. bodies are a big piece of the puzzle but are like pc's, the next one is always around the corner. glass on the other hand will always be good glass and that's where a good bit of a kit investment lies. I'd argue identifying the lenses you want to shoot and then attaching the best body to it you can afford might be a consideration for a newb and as big a factor in terms of considering the final IQ of an image..

I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, and what I washoping to do with the original post was just what you suggested -trying to understand whether what people say about Canon's Rebels'high ISO performance really translates to big visible differences inprint - or whether this is a significant "pro" in print for Canonthat I ought to understand when making my decision. So your commentabout enlargements from older cameras helps me get a feel for that.Unfortunately it seems that something derailed in between my questionin my head and my pressing the post button..

Simply put canon leads the high ISO arena in the asp-c format and smaller sensors. If that's a priority/majority of your shooting then go Canon. Nikon, Oly, Pentax, & Sony all can shoot higher ISO but with varying degrees of more noise. and then you get into the kind of noise and then you get into whether it can be PP'd out. Can they all make higher ISO images that you would be happy with, sure, it just takes a bit more work and consideration to get there..

You simply come across as bound up by the stats, spec's, and opinions of other's. in the end all that really matters very little once you have a basic understanding of the pros/cons of each which it seems you do. at that point dive in the water's fine, a dpreview should not prevent you from enjoying the camera you decide you want to lay down your hard earned cash for after doing the due diligence to come to a decision as there is very, very little between any of them yet alone the 2 you are considering..

Do a flickr search for images(go to original sizes to review them and peep a bit if you feel a need to) of any of the cameras you are considering(and even a few you aren't just to make it interesting) and if you can tell the difference between one vs. the other than pick that one, my guess is that you will be hard pressed to tell any difference hence making all of this waiting for a review quite pointless as it only accomplishes keeping you from your goal of learning to shoot that much longer and MISSING PICTURES darn it...

Comment #13

Erik, I enjoyed the above exchange. I have lately told freealfas that he is too much of an Oly-boy. It's good to see that he's taking a less centric view. His advice is good. There is too much information here on dpr. Many beginners get stuck like you have...trying to make the first decision!.

Once you make it, you will like the camera system you chose so much that you'll doubt that the other choice(es) could possibly be as good, much less better! You'll become a fan of that camera system and evangelize your opinion to all the heathens that were dumb enough to have bought something else. .

Seriously, the biggest differences are not in the specs. If you could borrow the cameras on your short list and use each for a week, the correct choice would be EASY! They have different shapes (they feel different), they have different locations for buttons, they have different menu orginizations, and they sound different...plus, each has a different speed of operation (that can't be quantified, as it's too dependent on a multitude of environmental variables). These are the important things!.

I encourage you to spend hours at your local independent camera store(s). Forget Best Buy, etc. Actually try to use each candidate. Bring your own memory cards. Use different lenses. Go outside and shoot in the sun.

Then sleep. When you wake up, you will know which one is right....

THEN, go buy the camera from that local independent camera store. If they are much too high, tell them that you'd like to buy it from them (because they were so helpful), but you need a better price! If they are foolish enough to refuse to negotiate a price, then go buy it elsewhere....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #14

Indeed this thread has been very helpful and has put my mind at ease regarding the high ISO stuff and other spec-based decisionmaking in general. I have gone to my local camera shops (one is sort of independent) and handled the cameras, and this thread has helped me convince myself that the other factors I was deciding on - the feel, the lenses, the viewfinder, and the other things that make a difference for me personally - won't be compromised by some supposed deficiency spec-wise. Or, in other words, that I won't be kicking myself a year down the road once I've developed enough as a photographer to figure more of this stuff out..

I hadn't thought about negotiating with the local camera guys (Mike's Camera). That's a good suggestion; I had just assumed that their prices were pretty fixed and that they wouldn't be able to match something I could find online. And their prices are just a TAD bit high compared to online outfits (something like $900 for a D80 body, for example, as opposed to ~$720 on B&H). Have you had success with that in the past? Probably can't hurt to try, at any rate..

Thanks for the comment...

Comment #15

I was just going to advise what Chuxter did: bring your own CF card into a dealer (you'll probably need 2 little ones so you can shoot with both cameras without reformatting) and shoot some images with both cams. Try to shoot similar images under a variety of lighting conditions and using both low and high ISOs. The ISO stuff is really important. AFAIK, other than the new D300 and D3, the Canon DSLRs will best Nikon at around ISO 400 and faster in terms of noise and perhaps dynamic range..

I'd suggest that you shoot something like ISO 100-200 and 400 and 800 and vary the lighting conditions between daylight and something dim in the store. Then go home and look at the noise and dynamic range in the images. Look especially in darker areas. I know Canon's DIGIC III in both 40D and 1D Mark III offer better dynamic range and noise characteristics than DIGIC II. I have a 1D Mark III and it's very visibly better than my old 20D..

And, while you're shooting, also pay attention to how well you like the ergonomics. Then go through the menu systems and see if one really impresses you as more desirable than another..

All the cameras you're thinking about are capable of good images. Today, I really think that lenses and your skills will make more difference than the camera body as long as the body you get is good. Also keep in mind that lenses tend to be a more long-lived part of the investment: you'll likely keep good lenses for many years, while you'll likely upgrade your DSLR body every several years..

Abbott..

Comment #16

I have been deciding between the two as well. I haven't bought it yet but I'm going to be getting the XSI. For me there were a couple reasons... for one, I've been using Canon P&S for years so the controls are familiar and it'll be nice to just jump right in to things. Another reason I decided to go with the Canon was the fact that the D80 is already 2+ years old. With both cameras being the same price, I don't want to pay for old tech..

I will admit that the D80 felt a bit better in my hands and seemed to have a more solid build but in the end I'm not a professional photographer and am not going to be beating the camera up, so I'm not too concerned with durability..

All the reviews seem comparable and you'll be able to get great results from both. To me it seems as though you want someone to tell you to buy the Canon because it appears as though your mind is made up and you want the piece of mind..

I can't remember who said it but I couldn't agree more... you're buying into a system and not a camera. Check out lenses for both Nikon and Canon and make a decision based on that. The XSI and D80 are both great. Look at your budget, look at what lenses you want to get and what you're going to be shooting and go from there. I don't think that a professional would be able to tell the difference between two pictures shot with both cameras...

Comment #17

My mind truly isn't made up, but at least I have a clearer picture of what I ought to be looking at - and if this thread has come to any conclusion, it's that there's no blatantly clear winner between the cameras and printing high ISO shots won't make or break either. So I feel like what my questions were getting at was pretty much addressed by everyone's comments..

I've been looking into lenses at the same time as looking at the cameras, and I would bet that I could cover my beginner's needs and spend my budget with either brand just fine. And by the time I can afford new lenses or a new body, the set of lenses for each brand might look different. So I can worry myself to death about that or just go buy either of these good cameras with a decent lens and enjoy it, which is a conclusion that's difficult to grasp when in the thick of a decision involving money .

I think the good advice I've received so far would have me just do as much research as I can stomach (not much more at this point), then head back to the camera store to test out again how they strike me, keeping lenses in mind, and so that's what I'll do..

Thanks all for the advice...

Comment #18

ErikInCO wrote:.

I hadn't thought about negotiating with the local camera guys (Mike'sCamera). That's a good suggestion; I had just assumed that theirprices were pretty fixed and that they wouldn't be able to matchsomething I could find online. And their prices are just a TAD bithigh compared to online outfits (something like $900 for a D80 body,for example, as opposed to ~$720 on B&H). Have you had success withthat in the past? Probably can't hurt to try, at any rate..

It helps to talk to the owner (Mike?). The employees often can't negotiate! Yes, I have negotiated with my local camera store (Ft Worth Camera Supply). The owner (Jeff) understands...he usually comes half-way down to B&H prices. I don't try this with the little stuff (filters, batteries, etc)..

Simply explain that you appreciate the ability to handle things like cameras, tripods, and bags, which are difficult to pick on-line, but that you are a starving photographer and can't ignore low prices from good on-line dealers (like B&H). He'll prolly explain that HE'S a starving camera store owner! You can thus have something in comon... .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #19

Take your time. It took me several months of serious reading and cogitating to decide between EOS 40D and 1D Mark III. Sometimes these decisions are miserably hard..

Your pen name looks like you're in Colorado, so I assume Mike's is the several Mike's Camera stores in the Denver area. They're pretty good and a much better choice than Wolf/Ritz (who, like other Ritz acquisitions, was better pre-acquisition)..

I used to live around there. Mike's can negotiate a bit, but don't expect them to meet online prices. Online, my favorite source is Canoga Camera in California (easy to find by googling). NY-style pricing but much nicer folks to deal with in my experience, and they won't try to sell you lots of extra things. They've been in business something like 50 years and I've been dealing with them for about 35..

After working with the locals and spending their time working with you, and handling the gear there while deciding what to get, you'll need to decide in the end whether you're going to pay a little more and support the locals, or you're going to save cost and buy Internet. I generally buy local if the guys were helpful and worked with me, and buy via Internet if they didn't add enough value to justify what they're charging. Personally, I don't believe it's right to take a lot of store worker time and buy somewhere else unless the store workers weren't helpful...

Comment #20

Chuxter wrote:.

ErikInCO wrote:.

I hadn't thought about negotiating with the local camera guys (Mike'sCamera). That's a good suggestion; I had just assumed that theirprices were pretty fixed and that they wouldn't be able to matchsomething I could find online. And their prices are just a TAD bithigh compared to online outfits (something like $900 for a D80 body,for example, as opposed to ~$720 on B&H). Have you had success withthat in the past? Probably can't hurt to try, at any rate..

It helps to talk to the owner (Mike?). The employees often can'tnegotiate! Yes, I have negotiated with my local camera store (FtWorth Camera Supply). The owner (Jeff) understands...he usually comeshalf-way down to B&H prices. I don't try this with the little stuff(filters, batteries, etc)..

Simply explain that you appreciate the ability to handle things likecameras, tripods, and bags, which are difficult to pick on-line, butthat you are a starving photographer and can't ignore low prices fromgood on-line dealers (like B&H). He'll prolly explain that HE'S astarving camera store owner! You can thus have something in comon....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'.

Thanks Charlie, that's very good to know - I'll keep looking around at prices and see if I'd be able to fit something like halfway-to-online prices in my budget. It'd be great to support my local folks but a starving grad student's budget is a harsh mistress!.

Thanks again...

Comment #21

Abbott Schindler wrote:.

Take your time. It took me several months of serious reading andcogitating to decide between EOS 40D and 1D Mark III. Sometimes thesedecisions are miserably hard..

Your pen name looks like you're in Colorado, so I assume Mike's isthe several Mike's Camera stores in the Denver area. They're prettygood and a much better choice than Wolf/Ritz (who, like other Ritzacquisitions, was better pre-acquisition)..

I used to live around there. Mike's can negotiate a bit, but don'texpect them to meet online prices. Online, my favorite source isCanoga Camera in California (easy to find by googling). NY-stylepricing but much nicer folks to deal with in my experience, and theywon't try to sell you lots of extra things. They've been in businesssomething like 50 years and I've been dealing with them for about 35..

After working with the locals and spending their time working withyou, and handling the gear there while deciding what to get, you'llneed to decide in the end whether you're going to pay a little moreand support the locals, or you're going to save cost and buyInternet. I generally buy local if the guys were helpful and workedwith me, and buy via Internet if they didn't add enough value tojustify what they're charging. Personally, I don't believe it's rightto take a lot of store worker time and buy somewhere else unless thestore workers weren't helpful..

Thanks Abbott, I'll take a look at Canoga. I haven't spent too much time in the stores yet, just enough to play with the settings and take some test shots (which I screwed up, unfortunately). Unfortunately I didn't know at the time that their prices were $200 more for just the camera body..

I won't be abusing their goodwill at any rate, and I'll end up buying SOMETHING from them even if I can only afford to get the camera body online. Luckily Mike's has a big sale coming up and luckily I won't be able to really enjoy the camera until their sale has started - so who knows, I might still get a great deal from them. Thanks for your comment!..

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