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Smallest camera with big bokeh ?
Leica M8 with noctilux 1.0 lens is great. A bit expensive, a bit big..

Wat is the most compact camera that can have important bokeh?.

Tim..

Comments (22)

An APS sized sensor. The sensor size is more important at achieving bokeh than the lens aperture. The lens aperture only affects the degree of bokeh if the sensor is large enough to allow it at all..

That's why most P&S models have a hard time getting any bokeh. DSLR's have a much easier time, FF models in particular. With medium and large format it gets crazy..

Chefziggyhttp://www.pbase.com/chefziggy/lecream.

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Comment #1

Sure, you're right. But the question remains: what is the smallest package that"can do it" in a reasonable way?.

Tim.

ChefZiggy wrote:.

An APS sized sensor. The sensor size is more important at achievingbokeh than the lens aperture. The lens aperture only affects thedegree of bokeh if the sensor is large enough to allow it at all..

That's why most P&S models have a hard time getting any bokeh.DSLR's have a much easier time, FF models in particular. With mediumand large format it gets crazy..

Chefziggyhttp://www.pbase.com/chefziggy/lecream.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window..

Comment #2

I hate to show my ignorance (based on 50 or more years of MF, 35 mm and minature cameras both film and digit) but what is "bokeh" and, more to the point, how come I've no idea what it is?.

Regards, David..

Comment #3

David Hughes wrote:.

I hate to show my ignorance (based on 50 or more years of MF, 35 mmand minature cameras both film and digit) but what is "bokeh" and,more to the point, how come I've no idea what it is?.

Regards, David.

I am sure that you know what it is but no doubt you did not realise it had a name..

Bokeh is the way the out of focus areas, usually in the background, are rendered. Good bokeh will give an image an almost 3 D affect..

This is not the best example, because it is one of mine, but here goes:.

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Regards.

Paul..

Comment #4

Very nice picture, Paul..

What is the smallest camera I could buy that would be somewhere close to that result?.

Tim.

I Beam wrote:.

I am sure that you know what it is but no doubt you did not realiseit had a name..

Bokeh is the way the out of focus areas, usually in the background,are rendered. Good bokeh will give an image an almost 3 D affect..

This is not the best example, because it is one of mine, but here goes:.

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Regards.

Paul..

Comment #5

I think that the Olympus E-410 is the smallest DSLR currently available.Chris R..

Comment #6

Reg Ister wrote:.

Very nice picture, Paul..

What is the smallest camera I could buy that would be somewhere closeto that result?.

Tim.

To achieve good bokeh you really need at least an APS sized sensor with a lens with some low dispersion lens elements such as ED glass in Nikon speak, a wide aperture and a bit of distance to the background. You also need some focal distance - as a minimum 50mm..

The Nikon D40 with a Nikon 85mm f1.8 (or even better an 85mm f1.4) would give you at least as good bokeh as my shot. The problem is that you would not have AF with this combination..

Regards.

Paul.

Possibly Pentax and Olympus have better and smaller options than thuis..

Comment #7

Forget the small P&S cameras. Look at a DSLR at a minimum. The Nikon D40/D40x is pretty small. But has some limitations. (IMO).

What is the emphasis on small? How big is too big? I think we would need to know this in order to give any further input.Chefziggyhttp://www.pbase.com/chefziggy/lecream.

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Comment #8

I Beam wrote:.

David Hughes wrote:.

I hate to show my ignorance (based on 50 or more years of MF, 35 mmand minature cameras both film and digit) but what is "bokeh" and,more to the point, how come I've no idea what it is?.

I am sure that you know what it is but no doubt you did not realiseit had a name..

Bokeh is the way the out of focus areas, usually in the background,are rendered. Good bokeh will give an image an almost 3 D affect..

An excellent response. But just to emphasize the point, bokeh (from a Japanese word) refers to the quality of the out of focus area. There is no deep or shallow bokeh, but good and bad bokeh. The depth of field is deep or shallow..

Brian A...

Comment #9

Thanks, I now realise I've an extensive collection of photo's featuring bokeh, and some with reversed boken (subject OOF and everything else in focus) and all over boken... I think I'll print some of the total bokens and see if I can sell them. .

I don't think the answers going to be simple. Getting the background OOF is mainly a question of wide aperture and being able to chose it, which knocks the idea of a P&S on the head. The second feature is a long focal length: well, longer than the usual 15 or 18 mm on P&S's..

But it can be done: I've done it by choosing "Portrait" mode on the camera which offers (usually) the widest aperture and then carefully walking around the subject to make sure there's nothing too near to be in focus or what looks like focus. I've done this at wide angle with P&S's..

Better still, a dSLR with a lens of a real 85 to 90 mm and a real f/2 on the thing. No problems at all with that set up..

So the question now is are these good or bad boken bearing in mind that I just snapped them with a P&S:.

1/60s f/28 63 mm focal length.

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1/550s f/28 63mm.

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1/170s f/56 22mm.

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More or less chosen at random as they were on the DVD I was checking this afternoon..

Regards, David..

Comment #10

I Beam wrote:.

Reg Ister wrote:.

Very nice picture, Paul..

What is the smallest camera I could buy that would be somewhere closeto that result?.

Tim.

To achieve good bokeh you really need at least an APS sized sensorwith a lens with some low dispersion lens elements such as ED glassin Nikon speak, a wide aperture and a bit of distance to thebackground. You also need some focal distance - as a minimum 50mm..

The Nikon D40 with a Nikon 85mm f1.8 (or even better an 85mm f1.4)would give you at least as good bokeh as my shot. The problem is thatyou would not have AF with this combination..

Regards.

Paul.

Possibly Pentax and Olympus have better and smaller options than thuis.

Thanks Paul, and thanks all..

Is the nikon d40 with 85mm F1,8 more compact than the leica M8 + (noctilux r other wide aperture-) lens ?

Comment #11

With a large aperture (small number) lens like a 50/1.8, 35/2, 85/1.8...

These would be compact, but not pocketable..

No compact (pocket-sized) point-and-shoot can do this - the focal lengths and apertures available for the given sensor size..

Cheers,S.**My XT IS Full Frame APS-C/FF of course!*****So is my 5D 35mm/FF**..

Comment #12

The answer to this question may have something in common with this discussion:http://forums.dpreview.com/...ums/readflat.asp?forum=1018&thread=25366465One suggestion there is a Pentax K100D with pancake lens..

The apertures are not extremely wide, but something like the 70mm f/2.4 might work.http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06091304pentaxda70mmf24lens.asp.

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Regards,Peter..

Comment #13

Pentax DA 40mm F 2.8.

The very small pancake lens builds just 15mm out of the camera and the weight is just 90gram.

ISO 200 f/2.8.

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Comment #14

Image 1: No bokeh. There is almost no out of focus region behind the subject - the background is almost as in focus as the subject, when comparing to the amount of bokeh you could get with a DSLR..

Image 2: No bokeh. See above..

Image 3: Bad bokeh. Remember bokeh is purely qualitative, but IMO this image is an example of bad or poor bokeh. The reason is because the out of focus region is rendered choppy and doesn't give a smooth look to the in focus subject..

Here is a thread I posted a while back giving two examples of my own images, one good bokeh and one poor bokeh, both using the same lense.http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=25008284.

Tim'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma Gandhihttp://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/..

Comment #15

David Hughes wrote:.

Thanks, I now realise I've an extensive collection of photo'sfeaturing bokeh, and some with reversed boken (subject OOF andeverything else in focus) and all over boken....

I'm sitting here in a totally silent house, laughing out loud. Reverse bokeh, I will remember that one ).

Although to spoil it all by being serious, do remember that 'bokeh' refers to the *quality* of the background blur, not the amount of it...

Comment #16

You can have heavy background blur even with a point & shoot. However, there's always a catch..

1. You can blur the background with photoshop..

2. If the background is very far from the subject, then it will be blurred out more. For example, an outdoor shot typically will have more blurry background than an indoor shot. So bring your subject outdoors..

3. If your subject is small enough, then depth of field will decrease with it. For example, a head shot will typically have more background blur than a full body shot, asuming all else being equal. When you do macro photography, say of a tiny bug, the depth of field will get down to millimeters, even with a small sensor...

Comment #17

Steve Balcombe wrote:.

David Hughes wrote:.

Thanks, I now realise I've an extensive collection of photo'sfeaturing bokeh, and some with reversed boken (subject OOF andeverything else in focus) and all over boken....

I'm sitting here in a totally silent house, laughing out loud.Reverse bokeh, I will remember that one ).

Although to spoil it all by being serious, do remember that 'bokeh'refers to the *quality* of the background blur, not the amount of it..

Hi,.

Thanks and thanks again to you both for explaining it as I'd wondered how you can have good and bad OOF. I guess the marketing people are scrapping the bottom of the barrel for any scraps they can find to convince people that their gadget is the best. Pity really..

And odd to think that people don't seem all that bothered by the lens qualities but look for huge zoom ranges and now they are being encouraged to think that OOF can be good. I wonder if my Leica 90 mm lens has it but can't be bothered to scan and post for comments..

BTW, I don't see good or bad to mine, just OOF and therefore background..

Regards, David..

Comment #18

David Hughes wrote:.

Thanks and thanks again to you both for explaining it as I'd wonderedhow you can have good and bad OOF. I guess the marketing people arescrapping the bottom of the barrel for any scraps they can find toconvince people that their gadget is the best. Pity really..

Actually I suspect the opposite is true. Cameras with small sensors (i.e. every compact on the market and most 'bridge' cameras too) have very little background blur in most circumstances. So subtleties like bokeh really don't enter into it. In any case a difficult concept like bokeh doesn't lend itself to the kind of headline marketing that has resulted in cameras being sold on MP and zoom ratio alone..

Even in the SLR world there are more important lens characteristics - the bokeh of my Sigma 18-50/2.8 Macro is especially good, but I would have bought it regardless. And my 50/1.8's bokeh is quite poor (mainly due to it's 5-blade diaphragm) but that doesn't stop it being a great lens..

BTW, I don't see good or bad to mine, just OOF and therefore background..

Background blur characteristics are affected by lighting and contrast just as much as by lens properties - more, in fact. A nicely out of focus background with no stark highlights or strong details will look great with any good lens...

Comment #19

K100D with pancake is probably the smallest package. The good thing is that this is an extremely affordable package to get super image quality, plus you have the ability to put something like the 16-50 2.8 Pentax on it for when compactness doesn't matter and you need a zoom with good bokeh...

Comment #20

So perhaps the focal length is the critical point? And the background since a fussy background will always be fussy in or out of focus..

Regards, David..

Comment #21

David Hughes wrote:.

So perhaps the focal length is the critical point? And the backgroundsince a fussy background will always be fussy in or out of focus..

The focal length does matter, but not as much as relative aperture or distance from the background. The amount of the subject in acceptable focus is dependent more on magnification than focal length. Lenses with the different focal lengths will have the same DoF for the same framing and aperture. Increasing the aperture will decrease the DoF and create a more blurred background and less of the subject in focus..

While focal length has negligible effect on subject DoF, longer focal lengths will blur distant objects more. And the more distant the objects, the more apparent this effect will be..

Brian A...

Comment #22

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