snubbr.com

Raw questions
I was just reading a very informative thread about the reasons/advantages for shooting raw. As a novice, I have two more questions to add..

First, if a camera is not great in low light situations, does shooting raw capture a better picture?.

Second, when you suggest always saving the original photo in jpeg and manipulating a copy, does that go for raw processing also?.

Thanks in advance for any info.Dossy..

Comments (23)

Dossy wrote:.

First, if a camera is not great in low light situations, doesshooting raw capture a better picture?.

It should give you greater dynamic range and allow you to process the image to get the best out of it balancing for example noise against detail. It will also allow you to correct White Balance..

Second, when you suggest always saving the original photo in jpeg andmanipulating a copy, does that go for raw processing also?.

The answer is not quite so simple:.

1. RAW formats are different for each camera so you cannot easily send a RAW shot for others to view..

2. Nikon NEFs allow you to store all the changes you want to the RAW file without disturbing the basic RAW info and to make as many versions as you like all bound up in the modified NEF so you just need a backup copy for safety and can work on the original NEF..

3. Thus in practice I have the modified NEF plus a jpeg to upload to my galleries at Zenfolio and back up copies of each of those on my external drive..

4. I use View NX for my PP work but with something like Photoshop you might save copies of different layers and thus ahve anumber of copies of the same image..

5. Other RAW files from Canon etc I do not think allow you to store modifications to the RAW file leaving the original untouched so it highly desirable not to work on the original just as witha JPEG..

6. I think it sensible always to have a copy at all times in case of accident. So I offload my photos onto a small D drive. I then copy (and rename them) to my C drive where I work on them. When I have finished I copy the finished NEFs and JPEGs to my USB external drive then delete the D drive copy (and reformat the card if I have not already done so.).

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #1

Dossy wrote:.

First, if a camera is not great in low light situations, doesshooting raw capture a better picture?.

Garbage in, garbage out. But with more bit depth, you might be able to smooth and adjust the curves on the image to salvage a pleasing image, better than you could with JPEG..

Second, when you suggest always saving the original photo in jpeg andmanipulating a copy, does that go for raw processing also?.

RAW viewers generally don't modify RAW files, especially the original sensor data. They save extra information that can be reset or undone or deleted, always returning you to the original data. Usually, you convert from RAW to the best possible un-edited image, then save that image in your image editor's format (PSD or TIFF or XCF or whatever). Then you only need to save final JPEGs ready for the web or picture frame or printing kiosk..

[ e d @ h a l l e yc c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/..

Comment #2

Thanks for your time and info!.

Actually I'm looking at the Panasonic FZ18. It will be my first camera with raw capabilities so I'm trying to understand everything I can. I find this all very exciting!Dossy..

Comment #3

Chris Elliott wrote:.

5. Other RAW files from Canon etc I do not think allow you to storemodifications to the RAW file leaving the original untouched so ithighly desirable not to work on the original just as witha JPEG..

First of all, Canon DPP does allow you to save changes in the metadata of the RAW file itself. Secondly, if other software or other RAW file types do not allow you to do that, it simply won't be possible to save changes back to RAW. You will be forced to leave the original file untouched, so that is never an issue..

Johanhttp://www.johanfoto.com..

Comment #4

Let's say I like the way my camera does it's jpeg processing (the Pentax K100d, which even Phil A. says gives good out-of-the-box jpegs in terms of color, saturation, & sharpness)-.

Am I likely to find, when I switch to RAW, that I am going to have to edit a lot more pictures which have no real problems (WB off, way under/over exposed) just to get them back to their normal competence?.

I certainly like the idea of easier yet finer adjustments while retaining more detail, but it seems like a lot of folks find flat-looking pictures that would not have been an issue with jpeg...

Comment #5

Johanfoto wrote:.

First of all, Canon DPP does allow you to save changes in themetadata of the RAW file itself. Secondly, if other software or otherRAW file types do not allow you to do that, it simply won't bepossible to save changes back to RAW. You will be forced to leave theoriginal file untouched, so that is never an issue..

Johan,.

Thanks for that. Whilst my knowledge of NX and NEFs is pretty good my knowledge on other systems is a little limited. I am vaguely aware of sidecar files etc with some PP software. I very occasionally used RAW with my oly DSLRs but never had any dedicated software. I worked almost exclusively in JPEG and used mainly Qimage for processing..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #6

Yes, you will. In principle, you need to edit every single picture if you shoot in RAW. Having said that, there is a nice way around that. Most cameras allow you to shoot RAW + JPEG. If you do that you can adopt the following approach: Start by looking at the JPEG. If you are happy with what you see, use the JPEG.

No need to touch that RAW file. If you are not happy with the JPEG, use the RAW file to have far more control over your edits than you would have if you tried to edit that JPEG..

Johanhttp://www.johanfoto.com..

Comment #7

So guess I have to decide whether ease of use and good general results of jpg are worth trading in for occasional fix of difficult image and increased dynamic range..

I'm just worried about depending on my limted editing skills to get back to where I am with jpgs!..

Comment #8

If you shoot raw you have to convert every raw file to an jpeg or a tiff. but you can batch process the raw files. simply setup a folder of raws from a days shoot and let the pc cook till all are done. but the drawback is that you would be using the settings from the first or second or third raw picture and all are going to be done with those settings..

It is very posssible that some raw files would not be at their best with general settings that are used; and those images might be bettered from the jpeg version of the same shot. it would depend on the spread from the general setting to the optimum setting for each shot. this is why if you shoot raw and want the very best raw can deliver from each picture then you have adjust every shot by itself. this why raw takes longer than the jpeg process. in raw you have the raw conversion of each shot plus the pp later. in jpeg you only have the pp if any...

Comment #9

Please post a link to the thread you reference. I currently just shoot Jpeg and I'm trying to learn what the benefits are to shooting RAW..

Thanks.

Dossy wrote:.

I was just reading a very informative thread about thereasons/advantages for shooting raw. As a novice, I have two morequestions to add..

First, if a camera is not great in low light situations, doesshooting raw capture a better picture?.

Second, when you suggest always saving the original photo in jpeg andmanipulating a copy, does that go for raw processing also?.

Thanks in advance for any info.Dossy..

Comment #10

GaryDeM wrote:.

If you shoot raw you have to convert every raw file to an jpeg or atiff..

No you don't. I shoot exclusively RAW only (i.e. not RAW +JPEG) but only convert the ones I want to publish/finish adjust significantly etc. and sometimes not all of those..

How do you suppose you see an image in the LCD after taking the shot, when the camera has only recorded a RAW file?.

Each RAW file has to have a JPEG embedded in it so that you can see the image in the camera and to give feedback such as histogram information. For previewing, sorting and selecting images, I just access the embedded JPEG and only actually fire up the RAW developer software once I actually need to work on a full res. file..

I use a Canon 20D and until recently a 300D too - but I assume all marques of DSLR do something similar - in the case of the 20D it has a 1536 x 1024 pixel JPEG (1.57MP) embedded in the RAW file and I access them using Irfan View - Fast Stone Viewer, XnView, Picassa and many others allow this - all for free. I just view the RAW files as a full screen slide show, but you can extract and save them all separately as JPEGs if you prefer..

Maybe photographers who are very skilled and don't take any duplicates or trash shots might need to develop every RAW file into an image format, but as I only work on something like 10% of shots actually taken, that's how many I actually develop - as and when required. For some purposes, the small JPEG is enough in itself..

So many photos, so little time.http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorialshttp://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfoliohttp://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images.

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so...

Comment #11

I was obviously speaking from the idea that if you take 100raw you are converting and pp all 100. from that position what said is correct...

Comment #12

My questions always seem to be 2-part..

First, after reading all of the above, is this stuff learnable with just playing around with the software, or is there somewhere I can turn to for instruction?.

And B, I am looking at cameras with RAW but have no software except basic Zoombrowser from a Canon sd450. If I invest in something like Photoshop Elements, does that handle RAW; or do I need a different software. I'm starting from scratch and on a budget, so I would appreciate any suggestions as to what I will need and the most economical way to get there (I think I have exceeded my "2-part").Dossy..

Comment #13

Dossy wrote:.

First, after reading all of the above, is this stuff learnable withjust playing around with the software, or is there somewhere I canturn to for instruction?.

I suspect most of us learned by just doing. I've not had any tuition or instruction and found out by just clicking things - the basics at least are pretty self-explanatory and intuitive, depending on what software you choose..

And B, I am looking at cameras with RAW but have no software exceptbasic Zoombrowser from a Canon sd450. If I invest in something likePhotoshop Elements, does that handle RAW; or do I need a differentsoftware. I'm starting from scratch and on a budget, so I wouldappreciate any suggestions as to what I will need and the mosteconomical way to get there.

If you're going to buy a new camera with RAW capability, it will almost certainly come with a suitable application - whether that will fulfill your needs long term is another issue, but it's usually more than enough to give you a taste and get you started. I don't think Elements in itself can manage RAW files, although maybe the latest version can..

Many of the good RAW applications have light versions with less features for a smaller fee. I have several applications as they all have slightly different strengths and some are more suitable for particular tasks than others. It perhaps depends on what camera you're considering as to what would be best..

So many photos, so little time.http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorialshttp://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfoliohttp://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images.

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so...

Comment #14

Here's a decent free RAW processor..........http://www.rawtherapee.com/?page=features.

And remember, this program won't spoil your RAW data, you have to save any mods to another file...

Comment #15

Thank you-all of you. I'm getting some great information. Boo, your photos are amazing.Dossy..

Comment #16

I have never shot in RAW, as I've always been a little intimidated by the idea of all that editing for every single photo. I would say out of the last 20,000 photos I've taken, there are maybe 100 in there that I would like to have a RAW file for. So, what's my solution...am I willing to shoot and process every single shot in RAW so I will have the info for that once in a long while time when I want it? probably not. I might could try the jpeg+raw style though. I don't like the idea of eating up so much storage space, but I guess when I go through my photos, I could throw away all the raw data for the vast majority of the photos where I KNOW I will never use it, and keep it for the maybes, and actually use it for the really good ones where I need it. Just guessing here and trying to talk myself into giving this a shot...

Comment #17

Surfingringo wrote:.

I have never shot in RAW, as I've always been a little intimidated bythe idea of all that editing for every single photo. I would say outof the last 20,000 photos I've taken, there are maybe 100 in therethat I would like to have a RAW file for..

In that case, use RAW for the 100 shots where you think you might have a problem to solve and JPEG for the rest. You don't have to make a lifetime commitment to one format or another, just use the best tool for the job on a shot by shot basis - if a shot is very special, unlikely to be repeated or you can see it might present problems, then switch to RAW or RAW+JPEG for the images that concern you..

What do you actually do with the shots? Do you actually really need to process every one - I doubt it? People often seem to approach the 'RAW decision' from misconceptions about how to use it. I personally shoot exclusively RAW largely for 3 reasons:.

1] I actually prefer the workflow - I've got into a nice routine that I like and I feel that many people who dismiss RAW as time-consuming etc. perhaps just aren't managing their workflow appropriately - I'd suggest that if it's more of a pain than a benefit, you either don't need it for the work you're doing and how you use your images, or you're doing it wrong. As I posted earlier, I use Irfan View to look at the small embedded JPEGs and for most viewing, selecting and quick access purposes this is all I need. I only then fire up the RAW application for shots I actually need full res. or better quality, need adjustments above what the JPEG can offer etc. Yesterday, for example, I took 25 images of birds in the garden, looked at the embedded JPEGs as a full screen slide show in Irfan View, chose 7 I wanted to work on and developed them from RAW.

So I have 25 RAW files, 7 full res. developed JPEGs and 6 small finished JPEGs. Had any needed significant work, I might have developed them as TIFFs and ended up with a working intermediate file with layers etc. too. The remaining 18 RAW files will be archived as all my files are and probably never be developed..

2] I do a lot of high ISO work and my camera, the Canon 20D, can't shoot without sharpening - I prefer to work with unsharpened images, especially at high ISO, so use RAW for all high ISO work - and as I like high ISO and am comfortable to use it for anything, tend to stick with RAW so that I can up the ISO with ease whenever I need something else from the exposure..

3] I don't want to have to make the decision for each shot as to whether it needs to be RAW or not, I'm plain scared (when storage media is dirt cheap compared to the potential value of a money making or important image) of taking a JPEG that I immediately wish I'd done RAW. I did one JPEG shoot the first week I got a camera with a RAW option and it was a nightmare to manage as the colours were all wrong and they then ordered large prints and I've very rarely shot JPEG since..

I thought of another - [4] - you don't know what software will be capable of in the future and how much more you can get from your images. I often look at older work and want to re-work it as I hone techniques for all manner of image manipulation. I think of it as future-proof insurance..

It's a very personal and subjective decision that only you can make - which also depends on what you like to shoot and how you use your images, your skill with both camera and post processing - the formats are both only tools at your disposal - how you choose to use them is entirely up to you - both have considerable strengths and potential weaknesses too..

So many photos, so little time.http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorialshttp://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfoliohttp://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images.

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so...

Comment #18

Thanks for the response, boo. Very informative and makes sense. This may not be as big a deal as I imagined...

Comment #19

OK, I just took a couple of shots in raw and imported them to my mac into iphoto. I can view a processed image there...I guess that's the imbedded jpeg? I opened one with photoshop cs2 and it says "the document img_1234.jpg has an embedded color profile that does not match the current rgb workspace. The embedded profile will be used instead of the working space" I don't have any idea what that means. I also don't know how to get to the actual raw file to process it in photoshop. I still see the processed image when I open it in photoshop. Sorry to be dumb, but oh well, this is the beginners forum...

Comment #20

Surfingringo wrote:.

OK, I just took a couple of shots in raw and imported them to my macinto iphoto. I can view a processed image there...I guess that's theimbedded jpeg?.

I would assume so - I don't even know what camera you're using - looking at your posting history I would guess a Canon 30D or 40D? As I dont use either a Mac or Photoshop, I can only speculate. What you're seeing could be one of two things - either the embedded JPEG - if it's smaller than the full res of the camera, that seems most likely..

If it's full res., most RAW development software has a starting point when you first access a RAW file - it has to present you with something visual to start from - and until you set up your own default settings within the application, this may well be whatever in-camera JPEG Processing Parameters you chose for the camera (i.e. picture styles etc.) - which whilst they don't effect the RAW data directly, they do obviously effect the embedded JPEG and many RAW developers use them as a starting point, assuming that if you chose them, that's a likely direction you'll be interested in..

I opened one with photoshop cs2 and it says "thedocument img_1234.jpg has an embedded color profile that does notmatch the current rgb workspace. The embedded profile will be usedinstead of the working space" I don't have any idea what that means..

Images are held within a colour workspace. This isn't something I know enough about to hlp further with really - but generally speaking most computer systems, like the web, tend to work in the sRGB colour workspace and for many purposes, that's probably all you need to worry about - it's all I ever use. For print preparation and more sophisticated image manipulation, users might choose RGB colour workspace. It sounds as though the camera took the image in one and the software is set up for the other. Check that both are using sRGB workspace. On the camera this is in the menu settings..

I also don't know how to get to the actual raw file to process it inphotoshop. I still see the processed image when I open it inphotoshop. Sorry to be dumb, but oh well, this is the beginnersforum..

I don't use Photoshop, so I hope that someone who does will answer this for you, but as I understand it, you need a RAW plug in/add-on for Photoshop (I think it's called RIT - RAW Image Task) - I think it's free, but I don't think a vanilla install of Photoshop can develop RAW files without that add-on. I stand to be corrected, I speak with no authority/experience on this..

If you do have a Canon DSLR, you will have also got DPP on a CD in the box - this might be better to try out RAW initially, it's a well featured application that you should already have..

So many photos, so little time.http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorialshttp://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfoliohttp://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images.

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so...

Comment #21

Yes, I have DPP open now, and I dug through the cryptic iphoto folders and found the three raw files in there. I am however unable to do anything with them. The files show no photo at all, and when I hit the white balance, or brightness (raw) buttons, I see a slider, but no image and the slider is greyed out. Sigh...frustrated. This is exactly why I haven't tried this yet. I'm just not very good at figuring things like this out...

Comment #22

Dossy wrote:.

First, after reading all of the above, is this stuff learnable withjust playing around with the software, or is there somewhere I canturn to for instruction?.

Dossy.

You can learn how to use Photo processing software through trial and error; however, an instructional book that comes with a DVD is a real asset in understanding the full functionality of the software. I upgraded my Photoshop to CS3 and started processing RAW which was through trial and error and it showed. LOL Then I bought a book, Photoshop CS3 Essential Skills, which comes with a DVD for hands-on experience in using CS3; it has been a huge help in learning to process RAW effectively. There are sub-menus and shortcuts I didn't know about...

Comment #23

Click Here to View All...

Sponsored Amazon Deals:

1. Get big savings on Amazon warehouse deals.
2. Save up to 70% on Amazon Products.


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

Categories: Home | Diet & Weight Management | Vitamins & Supplements | Herbs & Cleansing |

Sexual Health | Medifast Support | Nutrisystem Support | Medifast Questions |

Web Hosting | Web Hosts | Website Hosting | Hosting |

Web Hosting | GoDaddy | Digital Cameras | Best WebHosts |

Web Hosting FAQ | Web Hosts FAQ | Hosting FAQ | Hosting Group |

Hosting Questions | Camera Tips | Best Cameras To Buy | Best Cameras This Year |

Camera Q-A | Digital Cameras Q-A | Camera Forum | Nov 2010 - Cameras |

Oct 2010 - Cameras | Oct 2010 - DSLRs | Oct 2010 - Camera Tips | Sep 2010 - Cameras |

Sep 2010 - DSLRS | Sep 2010 - Camera Tips | Aug 2010 - Cameras | Aug 2010 - DSLR Tips |

Aug 2010 - Camera Tips | July 2010 - Cameras | July 2010 - Nikon Cameras | July 2010 - Canon Cameras |

July 2010 - Pentax Cameras | Medifast Recipes | Medifast Recipes Tips | Medifast Recipes Strategies |

Medifast Recipes Experiences | Medifast Recipes Group | Medifast Recipes Forum | Medifast Support Strategies |

Medifast Support Experiences |

 

(C) Copyright 2010 All rights reserved.