Tough call....mistakes happen so I belive you should take it as experience and move forward.
Think about as if you were at a store and the item was $5 and you gave the clerk $8 and walked out....do you come back 2 days later and ask for change?.
I feel for you but cant see asking the "new owner" which would have no hand in the original deal to hand over the domain...
Yeah, that is a tough situation. How long after the push did you realize what you had done?..
RJ - the transaction took place on 11/20. It was resold 3 days later I guess..
Natty - ya I certainly wouldn't demand the domain back from the new owner. I guess I would like to try and buy it back somehow.. I think I will be just learning from this experience though...
It is a tough situation, but to be honest, it's really his decision if he wants to compensate you or not. The right thing to do would be to refund the money, but I don't think he should be obliged. And I really don't think he should be called by name here because I really don't think he did anything wrong...
Thanks for your opinion. I thought about not naming this party but I decided to share this info since I am not completely convinced this is an innocent action. If it is unfair for me to share his name I'll let mods decide that...
Must have been a very nice sale for him to "assume".
You were sending him a nice LLLL .net".
I personally would have replied with a "why the extra domain?".
And at least a thank you! Which would have alerted you to the.
Mistake before he sold it!.
I hope things work out..
What clue did you send him that would make him believe it was a gift? A conversation or what? The godaddy interface needs to be changed a little bit because it's very easy to do that...
He could and should have asked why you sent the extra domain. You went out of your way to transfer the name to him.
Hope things work out for you, but you shouldn't expect anything for this. It's too bad you didn't get back to him sooner...
Take it as a lesson. You have to accept the situation I'm afraid...
At least you didn't sell him a quad premium .com and accidentally add another quad premium com to the xfer.
A crappy situation nonetheless.
If the buyer was decent he would give you $10 or as much as $20 as apparently he sold the "free" name for $20?..
Well, he should have asked you why you sent him an extra domain name. but this happened like more than 2 weeks ago, and actually, that happens because of your carelessness too, so it is a tough call.
This happened to me too when I took a taxi. I paid the driver 25 CAD(a bill of 20 CAD and a bill of 5 CAD) while I should have just paid him 15 CAD(a bill of 10 CAD and a bill of 5 CAD) for a 12 CAD taxi charge; the taxi driver returned me 3 CAD which I told him to keep as tips. Guess I have mistaken 20 CAD bill with 10 CAD bill!>.< I know the taxi driver should have told me that I gave him 25 CAD instead of 15 CAD, but of course I also know that blaming the taxi driver for not informing me in this situation was just....trying to escape from the reality that my fault caused that too...imo...
I ought to add I have had this situation occur both as a sender and a receiver and it was for a comparably valued name.
Each time we agreed on the mistake and I sent the extra name back in one case and in the other case the guy sent back the accidental "free" name back to me...
Your mileage may vary of course, depending on the NP member..
True, but I was really stoked to have the domain, to me it was priceless... No, there was no conversation about any free gifts, etc..
The extra domain that I pushed him was obviously better than the mediocre LLLL .com that I sold to him. He sold it almost right away for more than he bought the LLLL .com from me for. I just assume he knew it was a mistake and am mad at myself for not catching it right away..
Thanks to everyone for your opinions and support. Like I said, I will likely treat this as a learning situation.. If in the event that Frih feels like he should compensate me for my error, I will be grateful...
Shoulda, woulda coulda.....dang..thats a mess..
I would have returned the domain. I have done this in the past. the only time I didnt return one was when I picked up the names from tdnam, and then I was contacted by somone who said it was their family name, and wanted to keep it honorable and in the family. Somehow, I didnt that story about the domain MrHoles was legit...
Also, sometimes the receiver may honestly have no idea they got extra domains, since some registrars, such as eNom, don't notify users of incoming domains.
On a related note, some like eNom, don't have a confirmation screen nor secondary verification, so it's easy to accidently push domains to the wrong account...
GoDaddy is better at this, though I think they too have recently switched to only requiring a username or email, not both.
To forestall mistakes I typically do the following...
1. Note the number of domains in my account prior to pushing.
2. After pushing I reply back to the buyer with the domain(s) I pushed - that way they know they got them, since eNom (who I use for most all domains) won't tell them.
3. Check the number of domains in my account again to see that's it's changed as expected - there can be a slight delay in updating, so I sometimes verify again, if I'm uncertain.
4. Check and read my domain confirmation / change email notifications.
If he chooses not to return the name, I don't think there's anything you can do especially when GD does have a few confirmation screens...
I don't think the 2nd person has anything to do with this mess. I'd consider the domain gone... but the person that thought it was a gift should send you whatever cash was made from the domain. Obviously it was known to be a mistake since it was (I think) never mentioned in original negotiations.
Oh well ;(. I've had my share of domaining mistakes... I wish you the best of luck. IMO, Reputation is worth more than $20...
Mistake by Seller + lack of Buyer integrity = unfortunate loss.
Sorry to hear about this...
That line about thinking it was a gift made me laugh, he just didn't want to take responsibility for being unethical. However, if you had been more careful during the transfer, or noticed it in the two weeks after when it could have been reversed, this wouldn't have happened. I would just take it as a learning experience, but I appreciate you mentioning who it was so I know not to deal with him...
I wish I could say something to make you feel better. At least you have brought this to the attention of everyone. Always check after a transaction is done. Usually when you sell a domain, it's to make sure the new owner received the domain, after the payment, and the push..
In your case, of course, it was more. Sorry..
He sold it for $20?? You spent all this time stating what happend for losing $20?? man domainers sure are nickel and dimers...
I find it sad that most think this is not the buyers fault. If any domainer with any integrity would of been on the recieving end of this, they would of alerted the seller. If it sold for 20 bucks and was only worth that much. I wouldn't lose much sleep over it though...
I have had this happen twice as a buyer. Both times the sellers accidentally sent extra names. Probably an inadvertant checkmark. I notified them and asked if it was intentional..it wasn't. Sent the names back...takes just a few minutes of my time and I make a long term trading partner..
I would think twice before doing business with frih after hearing this....or anyone who can condone not asking the seller if this was an accident... VisionEdger...Get a life...you must be such a big timer you missed the whole point of the post.....
I recently returned a $5000 domain to an owner when it had been demonstrated that it had been dropped in error...
I was perfectly entitled to keep the domain - but, I think it's better to try to do the right thing, rather than do the 'what-you-can-get-away-with' thing...
This buyer got an obviously mistaken freebie....He should have immediately notified the seller of the mistake - and returned it.
I think what NiceDomains is trying to get across here, and is upset about is this: He was dealing with what is supposed to be a fellow trusted NP member!.
Usually when I have sold a domain to a NP member, I never even think about getting ripped off, or not having a payment sent. ( I have sold many more domains, than I have bought).
I have 2 .nu domains at this time, that are mine, but are in another NP members Moniker account. It was not his fault, but Moniker's. I tried and tried to push them to him, but couldn't. I there figured it was because of .nu's transfer fee. We cancelled the deal, because the new buyer didn't want to pay these fees. Of course, I didn't expect him too..
Just like NiceDomains, I just happened to check my Moniker account, and my 2 .nu domains are gone! I contacted the NP member, he is working with Moniker to get them back in my account..
The whois is still in my name, but the 2 domains aren't in my account..
Hey NameTalent, You have changed my message....
My message on DP was.
This was the message I sent to you on DP., read the last line of this quote, Please don't change the meaning.....
Also I sold the domain on NP after 1 week my purchase.
Here is the link: http://www.namepros.com/domains-for-...a-net-1-a.html.
I purchased the domain from you on 23rd, November.
Right Now, I have 0.16$ in my account...now just tell me how can I send you money,,,,.
That's why I asked yo to wait for some time....i waiting for buyers for my domains......
Maybe you can provide NiceDomains with the name of the Np member you sold the name too. He could contact that member, and maybe get his name back for the $20, or even $25..
You could then contact the member, tell him what you know, show him this thread, and try to help NiceDomains could get his name back..
I think you should at least try to do this. It would be the thing to do, since you are a NP member, and we should all be able to trust each other. Remember, other NP members are seeing this, and you are creating an image of yourself. Try to make it a good one now. NiceDomains really doesn't want the $20, he wants the domain he lost accidently..
Oops, I omitted the line about me waiting and then you pay me someday. No wording was changed, to make you feel better I have fixed the original post to include that. Anyway, this "I have no money, you have to wait" stuff is usually a way for someone to keep putting it off until it's forgotten about. I know if my reputation was on the line, I would find some way to compensate the other party ASAP..
The money is not why I am upset. As I told you in our conversation the domain that you sold was a domain that was very important to me. I am at a loss because of the domain, not the money. Whether you pay back or not is up to you and really I could careless. What I really want back is the domain back but I don't think it would be fair to the new owner to give him a sob story and expect him to return it, obviously he knew the potential when he saw it for sale. As you can see here there are many mixed opinions on what happened has here. WOW I cannot believe it was at auction here, and I didn't even see it...
I just looked at the auction thread. Frih, you definately knew you accidently received a premium domain, per your post. You should have contacted NiceDomains before proceeding:.
Posted by Frih:.
DNLA.net can used for the following...
DNLA Digital Living Network Alliance.
DNLA Discovery Networks Latin America.
DNLA Discovery of Natural Latent Abilities.
DNLA Danish National Library Authority.
DNLA Dalia & Nathaniel Lichfield Associates (UK).
DNLA Downtown New London Association (Connecticut, USA).
DNLA Development of Natural Latent Abilities.
DNLA Delaware Nursery and Landscaping Association.
Any More BIdder for this premium domain???.
Hey, I'm sorry for your loss. I totally agree that the right thing for the buyer to do was to contact you about the extra domain before doing anything to it, especially if it were worth more than the domain he bought. The fact that he sold it so quickly without contacting you should say that he was trying to get rid of it as soon as he could so that you couldn't ask for it back.
It's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be much you can do to get your domain back, other than buying it back from the new owner who will probably demand a higher price, because by trying to buy it back, you will make it clear to him that the domain was valuable to you personally...
Funny thing is he didn't even list the BEST possible usage for it:.
DOMAIN NAME +.
Live Auction (what I really wanted to do with it).
Btw, thank you to Frank and ALL Np'ers who have added any comments about this situation (except maybe visionedger ). Namepros is such a unique forum, you are all great and this is a very tight knit community of many friends. That is one of the main reasons I wanted to bring light to this situation once I found out Frih is a member here....
I've accidentally pushed an unintended domain to a user here and I was promptly notified of it. My experience dealing with the people of this community has been awesome.
My take on the general scenario: since when did the bare minimum become acceptable? Just because someone does not technically steal anything doesn't mean legally minimal behavior should be approved of. I encourage those who find this to be their standard to raise the bar. Treat everyone else with the courtesy you would hope for from them.
And I don't know what happened with Frih. I'm just speaking in what is termed proper conduct in the course of business dealings.
DomainTalker - you returning that domain says a lot about you. That is awesome.
VisionEdger - Just because a domain sales for $20 doesn't mean it's worth $20. Besides, as already said, this is about a transgression, not a price.
Edit: I'd like to add that I don't always notice what's going on with my account everyday. Sometimes I am sent domains or payment that I do not check on for a day or more later. If someone sent me a domain, I may not know it's there until I check inventory...
Why would you think a domain is a gift?.
Do you give away free domains, Frih?.
If I left my wallet with $20 at your house, would you assume I left that as a gift?..
These quotes kind of sum up how I feel about the whole thing...
I will send the PM to the member to whom I sold that domain....if he agrees then it is OK...
Else you can take a domain of your choice free from me....
To get money, you have to wait for some time....
I have just sent the PM to that member regarding the domain, waiting 4 his reply.....
@claire333, I also purchased PMWK.COM from @NiceDomains and I also posted that domain for offers.....after few days of purchase...
DNLA.net for auction because it was going to expire in January 2009, so to save renew charges, I put that on auction....else I will also kept that domain for more times.....
Listen to both sides, You are just watching the one aspect, see other aspect also....
Nicedomain is asking about the domain after 2 weeks of my purchase...Where he was for such a long time??..
I'm not one who enjoys playing the blame game, but I am compelled to say Frih was in the wrong here. Sure, nicedomains should have been a little more careful, but Frih's actions were equivalent to theft as he was well aware he received a domain name gratuitously and took advantage of the situation. Though I personally have never been scammed out of a domain name, I have overall found the domaining community to be morally dubious when these sorts of opportunistic circumstances pop up which is not too surprising in a business whose ultimate success story lies in cashing a fat check and I am not too surprised Frih undertook the actions he did. When we witness these sorts of episodes unfold it's important to look deep inside ourselves ask questions such as, "If this domain were 10x as valuable, or 100x as valuable as DNLA.net (say it were Fridges.com), would I, even for a moment, have considered taking advantage of the situation?" I see the Internet as, like Justice Holmes states in Abrams v. United States, an "open marketplace of ideas" in which the truth eventually wins out, even though this might require dozens or even hundreds of years to surmount. I firmly believe that if all (or even 99%) of domainers take a uniform stand to act morally in their business dealings and follow up accordingly, the general public will eventually think more fondly of us.
A part of me wishes there were some kind of "domainer manifesto" that everyone who entered this business were obliged to sign similar to the Hippocratic Oath medical school graduates are obliged to take before entering the Profession. Sure, a manifesto wouldn't prevent all misdemeanors or solve all problems, but if we could bring ourselves to adopt one it may help heal our public image by mere virtue of it's existence and further serve as a set of reference points when dealing with other domainers. Food for thought...
I feel for ya. We have all made mistakes.
I personally cannot imagine selling a domain that was not rightfully mine to sell but we all live by a different set of ethics. Time will tell, next time it might be the other person who makes the mistake.
It is nice to see there are some good folks on this forum that feel the same way...
11-26-2008, 03:00 PM In my view, since it was sold very recently (2 weeks is recent) and one could, though tenious, argue is "stolen" ... FLDataTek should be notified, if he hasn't already, of the situation, and be requested to return it for full refund plus maybe some extra compensation (ie. 2X the sale price) by Frih for the inconvenience.
To be clear, legally, and perhaps even ethically, FLDataTek isn't required to return it, but it would be the right thing to do; nice gesture to the domaining community.
Way to go, Frih. At least you are trying now to make things right. If the person you sold it too doesn't want to help out now, he doesn't really have too, or it obligated. I think he should though. I give you credit for trying..
Thanks buddy, for listening....i am trying my best....i have sent the pm..waiting 4 his reply.....
I couldn't have put it better myself JP. Evidently, most people look to get away with their deeds legally. Ethics no longer enters into the equation. These people may have a quick gain in the short run but, believe me, their reputation is dirt from here on out. Enjoy it while you can...
Live with the pain.
It happens, eat the loss..
Cheers You sold someone a house and also gave him the KEYS TO A CAR. He sold the car. How does that make him a scumbag?.
Its not like he phished OPs account... It was the OPs mistake, now that it's sold AND developed... how can he ask for more money or the name back? Be a little practical.
In any case, a quad premium llll.net with dn in it is not worth more than $15 today, at least in the reseller market. Frih is being good and even offering to pay the money. Ethics in this business? Who are you kidding? I could write an entire blog on the crap that happens in this business.
I agree ethics are important in business but this is not about ethics, it's about the money and the money is peanuts.
Don't dump on the guy just because he's new and doesn't have the mile long 'reps' you guys do.
Did he ask for the domain?.
Did he steal the domain?.
Did he refuse to acknowledge the domain was sent to him?.
Did he refuse to recompense op with the $20?.
I fail to see the scam...
No. Actually it's more like, you sold the house and accidently left the car key attached to the same keychain as the house keys you just handed over.
Then the new owner of the house assumes, "wow, he just gave me a car as a gift" and sells the car...
Now that he knows it wasn't a gift he's offering to pay the owner what he sold his car for.
$20 at the most was the value of the jalopy too.
I just think this whole thread is a waste of people's time, including my own. You might make it about 'ethics' and 'the right thing' - it's not. It could be an honest mistake...
I agree with everyone else above, he could have and should have asked why the extra domains, anyone with half a brain would know someone isnt just going to "give" a free short domain with some .net.
In a way it could be treated as a theft, else why would he get rid of it so quickly if he didnt know something wasn't right about it. I'm not pointing fingers here but that guy cant have much in the way of morals, allthough all this is coming from someone who couldn't be dishonest to get pizza.com free...
Wow MediaWizard, that is an incredible viewpoint..
Just because ethics is a problem in business (or anywhere else) does not make this action right or tolerable.
The buyer knew that he did not pay for this name and instead of contacting the seller to give it back he immediately sold the name..
Then when the buyer gets caught for his action...he confesses his transgression.
Why is this acceptable?.
How much money has to be on the line before you have a problem with what just happened?.
You have things backwards..
It is not about the money, it is about the ethics of this person and society in general. It is the compounding effect of this behavior ("I won't say anything unless I get caught") that has become pervasive in society, and it is not acceptable.
What would you do (should you do) if someone in front of you at the grocery store accidentally drops a $20 bill on the floor?.
The answer should be obvious, and it is bothersome that we are even debating this issue...
My point exactly SSL, it's not the value of the domain thats the concern here, it's the ethics/morals of the issue...
Sorry to hear this has happened to a NPs member. By sharing with us you have potentially save another member this headache.
I would have to emphasize the point made about the confirmation email. Never delete them thinking they are accurate. Always read and save them.
I recently sold LLLL.COM, to a NPs member, only to realize it was the wrong one. The NPs member was gracious enough to returned the name as I pushed the correct name.
Also .... did not follow up on your sale? A suggestions of related or similar names? A simple follow up on the transfer and a how do ya do might have revealed the problem sooner. I learned that the hard way.
The buyer, on the other hand, should have acknowledged what he assumed was a "gift" with a "thank you for the gift" email. If someone gives me a gift .... I would take the time to acknowledge it. I would guess he did not want to know if it was a gift. It appears, to me, he was completely satisfied with the assumption.
I might add that we sometimes inject our own personality or attitudes into text communications. The buyers words may have been meant much more friendly than they read. This should always be considerred. Coupled with other language barriers we can sometimes misunderstand an authors word with emotion.
I see fault all over this. By both parties. Perhaps your only solace at the end of the day is knowing you tried to be amicable about the resolve and it was for only $20. Unfortunately the buyer is a bit less ethical ..... or courteous.
Me personally? I'd point it out to the store staff and move on. But quite a lot of people wouldn't.
Now imagine that one of those did, put it in their pocket and walk away.
Now the original guy who actually dropped it comes back looking for it, and on not finding it called the store staff 'scammers' or thieves, would that be ok?..
This wasn't a scam, nor was what was done illegal. I don't think anyone's arguing that.
However, it was UNETHICAL. For the person to think the 2nd name was a "gift" is absurd. Why would he/she think it a gift? Why wouldn't he/she acknowledge the gift?.
Being a newbie doesn't excuse it. Common sense, good manners and ethics dictate that when the clerk at the store gives you more change than you're entitled to, you at least should ask "WHY?"...
I completelty agree, noone is calling anyone a scammer, but the buyer should've known better if they'd used common sense...
First message I recieved from nicedomains.
My reply to it.
Nicedomain second message My reply to it..
I never said I was scammed.. Actually being a part of this forum has taught me alot about ethics in this business. I have been so amazed over the last year to see how much I really can trust Np'ers. Sorry for wasting your time buddy.. LMFAO Nobody made you read beyond the first post. Seems like others around here are glad to learn about my mistake and if anything it will help people be more careful with the details when buying and selling.
This is the reason that I made this post. I am not writing here to whine or beg for any compensation. I just don't want others to feel like I did when I realized what had happened.
***On another note, I see Frih posted all of our correspondence above. I hadn't realized until now that I demanded the money he got for the domain..lol Man I was hot at the time hence the "I better just talk you about it later.."..
Unethical or not, In this situation you should have kept between you and frih and not brought it to the attention of the whole community as this isn't fair on frih who has actually done nothing illegal (this is a forum for legal issues and disputes after all).
A mistake was made, which unfortunately you will have to live with the outcome of. If frih said he would pay you when he had the $'s, you should have accepted that as it was your mistake not his...
^ that is the problem by taking this public..
I originally posted this in the domain name discussion forum, didn't even realize it was moved here until just now. Please translate...?.
Also, after I had realized I had said that I wrote this.. Guess I am lucky that is all I said considering my really bad temper @ frih - I don't want to put you in a tough spot over $20, if the domain cannot be returned do not pay me anything unless you think it is necessary.. All I wanted from this thread is to expose what I thought to be an unethical action and maybe if I was lucky the domain will be returned somehow. No matter what happens it will probably be a good lesson learned for both of us. We have all made mistakes, nobody is perfect...
You're right. Alot of people wouldn't do that. Most people would nudge the guy who dropped it and said "Hey, buddy, you dropped your $20".
Either you didn't read that the guy right in front of you dropped the $20 or DAMN mwzd, you're one cruel guy!.
However, if you found the $20 and had no idea who it belonged to, it's yours to keep. This guy, frih, KNEW who this domain belonged to.
Here's a better example. You own a store. You say the total is $10. I accidently hand you a $20 thinking it's a $10 and start to walk away. I'm not giving you a freakin' gift. "Thank you sir for doing your job, here's free money!".
AND, no. I think this has every right to be brought out to the public. People complain how there's all these domain scams and problems going on. If this happened at a store, you damn know YOU would go to Rip Off Report or The Consumerist and let everyone know about the crappy store.
I don't get why domainers think everything needs to be so hush, hush.
Things like this, when not resolved, NEED to be told about...
Perhaps this thread should be closed before it gets out of hand regardless of whos fault it was, I can see this escalating into a flame war tbh obviously nothing illegal happened here, it's just moral really...
Thanks, just the perspective I was aiming for.
Binder, not cruel, just realistic.
But if the OP wants to end this and take it to pm where it should have been resolved to start with, would be happy to oblige and close the thread...
In this example as soon as the store owner realises that you have overpaid he must return the money to you. If he does not then he is guilty of theft..
I would suggest that the case outlined in this thread is also subject to the following definition. Basic definition of theft.
(1) A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to.
Another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and theft and steal.
Shall be construed accordingly. Appropriates.
(1) Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation,.
And this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it,.
Any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner. Property.
(1) Property includes money and all other property, real or personal, including things.
In action and other intangible property...