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Looking to jump into the digital world -- EOS 40D? or 5D?
Hello all,.

My name is Jerrad Thramer, and I am a Hobbyist photographer. I have a EOS Rebel Ti that I got in high school, and it's a great camera and all, but I think it's high time to jump into the digital world..

Anyway, I cant seem to decide weather or not to get the EOS 40D or 5D. i've given their specs both a once over, but you cant really find a good comparison between them online, and so I thought I would ask the experts. I can afford either of them, but it would be nice that the money I save on a 40D could go to my lens fund .

What I'm looking for mostly is advice on what to get..

And the other thing....

Right now I have a EF 75-300 1:4-5.6 III lens, thats a piece of crud. I knew it was a cheapie when I bought it, but I couldn't afford some monstrosity, and it was a pretty good price used..

So i'm looking at two different lenses right now:.

EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM.

Or the.

EF 28-300mm 3.5-5.6L IS USM, 77..

The extra 100mm zooming power is attractive, but so is the 2.8 stop of the first lens. Like I said I do a lot of sports and Nature photography, and I love to do Macro photography as well. What is the +/- of those lenses, and which one would be a better fit for me?.

Thanks guys!-Jerrad..

Comments (33)

I'm a Nikon guy, but I really like the 40D over the 5D and if I were going Canon these days that's the one I'd get. Sure the 5D has full frame, but it's dated, menu driven and a cheap plasticy body. The 40D is a solid semi-pro body and takes great images. Just my opinion. Or you could come over to the good side of the force and get a nice D300 ..

Comment #1

Heh... if only you got me while I was still in high school... That camera that I have now in addition to the few lenses that I have kind of locks me into cannon...

Comment #2

Without spending big big bucks the 5D is the way to go. IT IS A FULL FRAME CAMERA. The other stuff doesn't matter. The crop camera owners would love to have a 5D. The Nikon guys want the full frame D3. The Canon guys want the full frame EOS-1Ds m3.

The Canon guys have the full frame 5D that is within reach. Nikon maybe someday? Sony soon?.

There is a newer 5D model rumored that is bound to be better, bla bla bla, but it will probably be more expensive than the current model. Meanwhile you have already "Bitten the Bullet" so to speak, and have a foot hold in the full frame world where everybody would really like to go. You will have started your collection of full frame lenses for full frame bodies now and here after. (They work on crop sensor cameras too). Even a newer 5D version wouldn't stop you from selling the older one or having a fantastic back up body..

Plastiky? Menu driven? It's BS. I don't know a single 5D owner that is unhappy with his or her 5D camera for any reason. The images they produce are fantastic. Crop camera users really envy full frame IQ. Relative IQ is always compared to the full frame cameras and crop cameras are rationalized on less bulk, cost, weight, burst rates, and other obscure factors..

If you have the choice - go full frame be done with it. For quick and dirty work , throw A G9 in the kit. (costs less than one lens!)..

Jack1931..

Comment #3

What, specifically, is the difference between a full frame and non full frame camera? (i know the technicals, I mean whats the practical difference) I have a couple POS consumer lenses (the one 28-80 kit lens, and the 75-300 crud lens)... will I have to give those up?.

I also really like the fact that the 40D has fixed the ever-so-vexing CF writing problem... but like I said I haven't made up my mind yet, not by a long shot.....

Comment #4

The Full Frame means that the sensor is the same size as a 35mm film frame. Lenses designed to cover 35mm film will be the same on the Full Frame digital camera. If you have lenses from your film days, and they fit the mount on the digital camera, they will act optically the same. A 50mm would act as the normal as it did on the film 35..

The "cropped" cameras have sensors smaller than the 35mm film frame Wide angle lenses are not wide - but telephotos seem longer The IQ - Image Quality - is better from a larger sensor or a larger piece of film. Why would you want a smaller piece of film or a smaller sensor if you had a choice? That is, if Image Quality is important to you. At the moment there are only three "full frame" 35mm bodies on the market. The Nikon D3 (body only), about $5000, Canon EOS1DsmIII (body only), about $8000 and the Canon 5D (body only) for I believe about $2500I could be offbut a lot less than the others..

If money is of no object, go to even bigger than 24x36mm sensors. Go to the medium format cameras the ultimate. How about $30,000 or more! Top pro stuff. The images are beyond belief. Better than any of the cameras above. Again, I suggested the Canon 5D full Frame camera as the best of camera for the money, if Image Quality is important to you..

No further comment..

Jack1931..

Comment #5

Interesting. I'm not making my purchase until the end of summer, and I've heard A LOT about the 5dmkII. Do you think it's worth waiting for? I hear that canon will work miracles with that..

Furthermore, what kind of lenses do you recommend? Noone has commented on that yet .

Thanks for all your help!-Jerrad..

Comment #6

What would be a miracle? It's going to be a camera. I doubt that it dances a jig. With luck lets hope it not another cropped sensor thing with a lot of bells and whistles. Rumors, enough already..

Lenses:.

The 5D is often sold with a 24-120L IS zoom as a package deal. Nothing I can think of would make a better choice. From there, your in the Canon candy store. It is endless. Everyone has his own choices. The higher quality L lenses are nicer to use and are usually a little sharper and faster but also often faster and heavier.



What the hell am I doing, I think your waisting my time. This is all old stuff. I'm going to bed. Good night..

Jack1931..

Comment #7

Jack1931 wrote:.

Without spending big big bucks the 5D is the way to go. IT IS A FULLFRAME CAMERA. The other stuff doesn't matter. The crop camera ownerswould love to have a 5D. The Nikon guys want the full frame D3.The Canon guys want the full frame EOS-1Ds m3. These are veryexpensive pro cameras but in the meantime, the Canon company offersthe 5D at a very reasonable price.

Nikon maybe someday? Sony soon?.

Actually, you want a full frame camera. This is fine. It doesn't automatically mean other people want one, though. I certainly don't want one, so don't tell me I do..

That said, the OP certainly has a reason to look at the 5D, since he's apparently coming from film. However, he also seems to like a lot of tele - which means the 40D's built-in 1.6 "teleconverter" could be a powerful friend.http://flickr.com/photos/iskender..

Comment #8

Simple enough... how much money do you want to waste?.

Once you get past the bottom of the line digital single lens reflex camera from any manufacturer, you pay extra just because you can, and for added features that hardly ever matter, except to a remote few..

Your failure to see differences between a 40D and a 5D is good and bad news. Good because, yes, you're right, not many differentces that matter. But, on the other had, one is full frame and one isn't and that means different coverage fromlenses, and with the 40D a wider range of lenses to pick from..

But once you buy a lens and stand at the right distance and take a picture and make an 8x12 print you're right. There's no difference for an amateur without a lot of experience..

The Rebel XTi is a great camera, excellent value, and not a waste of money. If you like the latest and great, buy a brand new XSi..

You won't tell any difference between the XSi pictures and the 40D shots, except with a magnifying glass at large, large sizes, and then the XSi will be better..

BAK..

Comment #9

Sorry charlie, but a 450D wont cut it. Being a wildlife/Sports guy, 3 fps is waaay two slow for me. Plus, the extra speed is nice on the 40D when I'm shooting a lens wide open in the daylight..

Actually, the biggest thing for me is a thumb wheel. this may sound kooky, but i've wanted one ever since I did assignments with the Elan 7..

Bottom line is that i'm looking for something with a Little bit of a step up from the amateur consumerist line..

Honestly I think that i'll wait and see what canon does with the 5D line, the 5D is too slow for me now (3 FPS???), but if they release a MkII by this summer i'll def. check it out..

(P.S. I wouldent say that i'm a newbie amatuer, more of a "Pretty (but not Fanatically) serious hobbyist". I mean after all, i'm a college student willing to drop a couple of grand on a camera, thats saying something...)..

Comment #10

Jerrad;.

I don't enjoy being jerked around your not a newbe for sure. You know all about it and have the bread to buy anything you want so you wasted (my) our time. I gave honest sound advice to a person fitting the profile that you originally presented. Neitherthe 40d or 5D is what your looking for. Get the D3..

I've learned from this experience. Not that it really means a rat's ass, but I'm through with this forum s**t and all those that mess with it..

Jack1931..

Comment #11

Jack1931 wrote:.

Jerrad;.

I don't enjoy being jerked around your not a newbe for sure. Youknow all about it and have the bread to buy anything you want so youwasted (my) our time. I gave honest sound advice to a person fittingthe profile that you originally presented. Neitherthe 40d or 5D is what your looking for. Get the D3.I've learned from this experience. Not that it really means a rat'sass, but I'm through with this forum s**t and all those that messwith it..

That's one hostile response. I honestly don't see where it came from.http://flickr.com/photos/iskender..

Comment #12

So after I recover myself from getting hit by that particular train, Anybody else have some advice?.

I'm not asking for advice as a newbie who knows nothing about photography, I'm asking as a Amateur Enthusiast who would like the opinion of professional experts who have experience with both cameras and who are knowledgeable about which one would be the best fit for me, given my area of interest..

Thats all...

Comment #13

JThramer wrote:.

Which one would be the best fit for me, given my area of interest..

You want more than 3 FPS, the 5D isn't for you. Get a 40D. Or spend more money on a D3, D300, 1D3, etc. Don't be locked in due to your lenses, you admit they're POS..

But you know all this already..

Seen in a fortune cookie:Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed..

Comment #14

JThramer wrote:.

Interesting. I'm not making my purchase until the end of summer,and I've heard A LOT about the 5dmkII. Do you think it's worthwaiting for? I hear that canon will work miracles with that..

For sports and wildlife, you'll probably be happier with the crop factor, since you put more pixels on the subject for a given focal length and the sensor size is still reasonable. There are enough ultra-wides now for crop sensors that getting a wide angle shot isn't all that big a deal..

Furthermore, what kind of lenses do you recommend? Noone hascommented on that yet .

300mm is as short as you want to go if you're shooting outdoor sports and birds or small mammals..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #15

Nickleback wrote:.

JThramer wrote:.

Which one would be the best fit for me, given my area of interest..

Don't be locked in due to yourlenses, you admit they're POS..

But you know all this already..

If you look beyond your lenses as suggested the E3 with Oly's long lenses are worth a look as well..

2x equivalency factor(not crop factor), dust reduction that works, sealed body/lenses, fastest AF system presently. It's at least worth a look as Oly's long lenses are very much worth it..

With the Oly 12-60 & 50-200 you can carry an equivalent of 24-400mm very nicely, sealed, SWD'd, and sharp. you can't say that with any other system... add 2x converter and tripod and you are good to 800mm..

There's a lot good to say about jumping to the Oly camp right now as it is a d300 match save for ISO up to 800 and still usable past that to 1600..

The lenses are the Oly strength right now and with each body the ISO will get better. I'm a proponent of great glass before latest body as the bodies will come go with each "upgrade", great glass is always going to be great glass. Oly has some great glass....

If you are not interested in jumping ship it seems the 40d is more than enough. despite popular opinion 35mm sensors are not for everyone and just lead to unnecessarily heavy kit bags if not required by style or shooting type. If you need it, pursue it, it sounds for your type of shooting the E3/d300/40d will serve you quite well sooner than waiting for later and all the shots you'll miss...

Comment #16

Freealfas wrote:.

Nickleback wrote:.

JThramer wrote:.

Which one would be the best fit for me, given my area of interest..

Don't be locked in due to yourlenses, you admit they're POS..

But you know all this already..

If you look beyond your lenses as suggested the E3 with Oly's longlenses are worth a look as well..

It'd seem the E-3 may not be all it should be:.

Http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/E-3-Second.shtml.

Personally, unless that review is thoroughly debunked, I'd be looking at pretty-much anything else first. Banding pulling up the midtones is bad, AF performance is bad, flash compensation is bad- there's not much negative there that's not pertinent to a nature shooter except perhaps the long exposure banding problems for someone who doesn't shoot a lot of scenics..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #17

Freealfas wrote:.

If you look beyond your lenses as suggested the E3 with Oly's longlenses are worth a look as well..

Sure..

2x equivalency factor(not crop factor).

A useless semantic distinction. Equivalency factor and crop factor describe exactly the same thing..

Dust reduction that works, sealed body/lenses.

OK..

Fastest AF system presently..

At this point the claim is simply marketing. Olympus appears to have defined this narrowly enough to make the claim. They fail to mention what lenses they compared against, and their testing methodology. Taken from http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2007b/nr071017e3e.cfm:.

"*1 Among digital SLR cameras available as of October 17, 2007.When the ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 12-60mm f2.8-4.0 SWD lens is used with the E-3 at a focal length of 60mm(120mm: 35mm equivalent).Based on Olympus's in-house measurement conditions.".

It's at least wortha look as Oly's long lenses are very much worth it..

Absolutely. I just wish Olympus marketing was a little less over-the-top. The E3's merits should sell itself..

There's a lot good to say about jumping to the Oly camp right now asit is a d300 match save for ISO up to 800 and still usable past thatto 1600..

They are similar in some ways, but quite different in others. The E3 has some things going for it (body IS, tilt display, size), the D300 others (faster FPS, high ISO, more advanced AF, IS lenses, larger high res screen, better flash system).

The lenses are the Oly strength right now and with each body the ISOwill get better..

As it will with larger sensors..

Seen in a fortune cookie:Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed..

Comment #18

Paul Robertson wrote:.

It'd seem the E-3 may not be all it should be:.

Http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/E-3-Second.shtml.

Personally, unless that review is thoroughly debunked, I'd be lookingat pretty-much anything else first. Banding pulling up the midtonesis bad, AF performance is bad, flash compensation is bad- there's notmuch negative there that's not pertinent to a nature shooter exceptperhaps the long exposure banding problems for someone who doesn'tshoot a lot of scenics..

Paul.

Sure it is,.

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27563426.

True to form, you fail to mention that the reviewer continues to use the E3 as his day in/out money making tool for his work with a canon for backup I suspect in high ISO shooting which we all know and admit isn't the realm of the 4/3rd system..

Why is that as he obviously can afford 2 systems to have at his disposal..

Dpreview still calls it highly recommended and this LL reviewer despite what he writes uses it for making money, all in all a good reason to consider it if thinking about a switch. look around the forums and flikr accounts and compare images, you won't see much difference sub 800 ISO as was pointed out..

Spend some time in the 40d and d300 forums and you will find problems there as well. make a point already, I said it was worth a look because of the glass primarily which you can make little argument with. they all have their issues to discount one for the OP based on one review is more than a little presumptuous as I suspect they can make up their own minds how they'd like to spend their money...

Comment #19

Nickleback wrote:.

2x equivalency factor(not crop factor).

A useless semantic distinction. Equivalency factor and crop factordescribe exactly the same thing..

Incorrect, crop factor describes image circle to sensor, multiplier factors compares sensors. hence the point that Oly lenses aren't cropped at the sensor, they are matched image circle to sensor size..

Nothing useless about it as it describes two different things..

And to the OP, good luck picking, the good part of all of this is there are a lot of very good options out there to consider. spend a little time in each manufacturer's forum, ask a few questions, read a few reviews and make your decision as there is no real wrong one. hit a store and handle them in person as well as that's probably more important than most of it..

Canon / nikon aren't the only viable options as many would have you think out there that was my only real point in suggesting the Oly kit, you can make arguments for any of them, your money and time spent considering which you buy will get you a great camera regardless of the name on the box..

Canon - great high ISOnikon - great all aroundoly - great lensespentax - primessony - ? .

You simply pick your battles.....

Comment #20

Freealfas wrote:.

Nickleback wrote:.

2x equivalency factor(not crop factor).

A useless semantic distinction. Equivalency factor and crop factordescribe exactly the same thing..

Incorrect, crop factor describes image circle to sensor.

So an APS-C DSLR with an APS-C lens (of which there are many) is an "equivalency factor", but with a 35mm format lens a "crop factor". Totally meaningless semantics. The end result is the same..

If you want to get picky about it, most zoom lenses have a wider image circle at the long end of the zoom. So every system (including 35mm format and four-thirds) "crops" the image circle..

And if you want to be super picky, unless your camera has a circular sensor, or you are using a circular fisheye, you are getting a rectangular crop..

And to the OP, good luck picking, the good part of all of this isthere are a lot of very good options out there to consider..

Absolutely..

Seen in a fortune cookie:Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed..

Comment #21

Nickleback wrote:.

Nickleback wrote:.

So an APS-C DSLR with an APS-C lens (of which there are many) is an"equivalency factor", but with a 35mm format lens a "crop factor".Totally meaningless semantics. The end result is the same..

Not meaningless but Yes otherwise..

They inherited the 35mm format lens systems and mounted them on asp-c cameras hence the term crop factor(in it's popular iteration) was appropriate as it accurately described the crop of the image circle by the smaller sensor..

You can argue the end is the same describing an effective focal length which it is but in fact crop factor and multiplier describe two different relationships..

While semantics maybe, none the less different..

OP - enjoy whatever you buy, my only advice don't wait for a 5d replacement as you'll miss too many shots until it gets here and a bag full of 35mm glass just leads to a sore back....LOL..

Comment #22

Freealfas wrote:.

Nickleback wrote:.

Nickleback wrote:.

So an APS-C DSLR with an APS-C lens (of which there are many) is an"equivalency factor", but with a 35mm format lens a "crop factor".Totally meaningless semantics. The end result is the same..

Not meaningless but Yes otherwise..

So if you use an adapter and mount an OM lens on a four thirds camera, it's a crop, but if you mount a four-thirds lens on four-thirds camera is an equivalency? Still completely meaningless semantics..

You can argue the end is the same describing an effective focallength which it is but in fact crop factor and multiplier describetwo different relationships..

It's the same "35mm equivalent" focal length whether you mount a 50mm four-thirds lens or a 50mm OM lens on a four-thirds camera..

It's the same "35mm equivalent" focal length if you mount a 50mm APS-C or 50mm 35mm system lens on an APS-C DSLR..

While semantics maybe.

Not only semantics, meaningless semantics..

Guess what happens when you zoom on a zoom lens? You typically get a different image circle. Mount a Nikkor DX 12-24mm on a D3 or film camera, and from 18mm and up you have no vignetting. It's projecting a large enough circle to cover 35mm. At 24mm it'll likely project a circle large enough for 645..

So is the Nikkor 12-24mm DX lens on DX camera a crop or equivalence? How about the same lens on four-thirds or 35mm? Does this all matter, or is it semantic masturbation?.

Seen in a fortune cookie:Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed..

Comment #23

Freealfas wrote:.

Paul Robertson wrote:.

It'd seem the E-3 may not be all it should be:.

Http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/E-3-Second.shtml.

Personally, unless that review is thoroughly debunked, I'd be lookingat pretty-much anything else first. Banding pulling up the midtonesis bad, AF performance is bad, flash compensation is bad- there's notmuch negative there that's not pertinent to a nature shooter exceptperhaps the long exposure banding problems for someone who doesn'tshoot a lot of scenics..

Paul.

True to form, you continue to ignore the OP's question about two different camera bodies from a completely different brand to chime in with the fanboy option..

Sure it is,.

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27563426.

However, I notice not a single image showing that the LL reviewer either had a bad sample or posted false images. Saying "It's not that bad" is one thing, proving it is quite another. If the LL reviewer did something wrong in their testing, let's hear what it was- otherwise it just sounds like a fanboy repeating useless platitudes..

True to form, you fail to mention that the reviewer continues to usethe E3 as his day in/out money making tool for his work with a canonfor backup I suspect in high ISO shooting which we all know and admitisn't the realm of the 4/3rd system..

Sure, but I also didn't point out his conclusions:.

"I don't think that the Olympus E3 will ever be taken seriously amongst most working photographers, who, (like myself), need kit that will deliver the goods regardless of circumstances, rather than just 75% of the time. If they could deliver an IQ, (and introduced a few firmware tweaks), that even matched a four year old canon 20D, they would be well on the way. ".

While that might disappoint the fanboy, it's useful information for a photographer who's looking for a tool rather than a brand statement. Some tools are better than other tools, and if you can't get simple levels adjustments without banding, then the E-3 is a poorer tool than any of the alternatives *including* the two tools the OP originally asked about..

Why is that as he obviously can afford 2 systems to have at hisdisposal..

Dpreview still calls it highly recommended and this LL reviewerdespite what he writes uses it for making money, all in all a goodreason to consider it if thinking about a switch. look around theforums and flikr accounts and compare images, you won't see muchdifference sub 800 ISO as was pointed out..

Sure, but if you're going to consider every single camera that doesn't "even match a four year old canon 20D," you're going to be considering a lot of cameras! The OP had narrowed their choice down to two bodies, throwing in a third that's substandard isn't an answer, it's simply brandstanding..

Because of the glass primarily which you can make little argumentwith. they all have their issues to discount one for the OP based onone review is more than a little presumptuous as I suspect they canmake up their own minds how they'd like to spend their money..

All the glass in the world won't make you competitive if you don't have a competitive body to put it on. Maybe you're long on Olympus stock and want to fund their tries until they come up with a competitive camera body, but I suspect most folks would rather have one out of the gate, especially when moving to digital for the first time..

The review looks quite credible to me, but perhaps you can post some files that debunk it? Oh wait, you don't even own an E-3, you're simply championing the Olympus brand blindly! Sure, that's real credible against an article written by a photographer who despite an admitted Olympus brand loyalty finds that the camera doesn't perform as a flagship camera from a major manufacturer should..

Canon's had AF problems, they addressed them (albeit reluctantly.) Nikon's had banding issues, they addressed them. If you can't do a levels adjustment or long exposure without banding, then Olympus needs to address it, not have it's users and fans who don't even own the camera pretend it's not an issue. Sure, few users do 15 second exposures, but the levels issue seems a lot bigger to me, as do the AF and flash compensation issues..

If I were looking at a brand-new top-of-the-line camera, I'd certainly want it to be comparable to everyone else's cameras, and I'd want to be able to do levels adjustments on the files..

The 5D and 40D are both Canon bodies- that's what the OP wants to know about- but you seem to continually want to act the brand fanboy despite the topic the OP chooses. Given that, I choose to provide a balancing voice..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #24

Jack1931 wrote:.

Jerrad;.

I don't enjoy being jerked around your not a newbe for sure. Youknow all about it and have the bread to buy anything you want so youwasted (my) our time. I gave honest sound advice to a person fittingthe profile that you originally presented. Neitherthe 40d or 5D is what your looking for. Get the D3..

I've learned from this experience. Not that it really means a rat'sass, but I'm through with this forum s**t and all those that messwith it..

Jack1931.

Well, I for one am glad he's gone. What a bitter bitter old man!..

Comment #25

Paul Robertson wrote:.

True to form, you continue to ignore the OP's question about twodifferent camera bodies from a completely different brand to chime inwith the fanboy option..

I guess in all of your "ANOTHER FANBOY RAGE" you FAILED to read this I posted;.

If you are not interested in jumping ship it seems the 40d is more than enough. despite popular opinion 35mm sensors are not for everyone and just lead to unnecessarily heavy kit bags if not required by style or shooting type. If you need it, pursue it, it sounds for your type of shooting the E3/d300/40d will serve you quite well sooner than waiting for later and all the shots you'll miss..

However, I notice not a single image showing that the LL reviewereither had a bad sample or posted false images. Saying "It's notthat bad" ....

I guess posting a forum thread with owners offering a balanced accounting on both sides of the LL review isn't enough for you combined with the FACT I never said anywhere "it's not that bad" you are hallucinating about..

"I don't think that the Olympus E3 will ever be taken seriouslyamongst most working photographers, who, (like myself)...".

I guess the pro's using it didn't get the pro memo that goes out to all the pro's only about not considering it as there are a few I suspect making money with one or more..

So all it takes to call yourself a "pro" is 15 pictures of "some recent works which are perfect to dress up any decor and bring interest and beauty to your home or office" on a website... that sounds more like an interior decorator but if that's the case sign me up because then I can go around the forums and throw a fit about someone offering an Oly up as an option..

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...022&message=27623506&q=e3+d300&qf=m.

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=25713591.

Who's going to be disappointed now....

While that might disappoint the fanboy, it's useful information for aphotographer who's looking for a tool rather than a brand statement.Some tools are better than other tools, and if you can't get simplelevels adjustments without banding, then the E-3 is a poorer toolthan any of the alternatives *including* the two tools the OPoriginally asked about..

You'll note I never one said it was a better tool, I simply said it was a tool worth considering if taking an opportunity to do so..

"... throwing in a third that's substandard isn't ananswer, it's simply brandstanding..

You really think highly of your own opinion... substandard, that's funny... what do you tell to the 1dmkIII crowd that spent stupid money and can't get a reliable focus or the 17-55 f2.8 usm owner that spent a ton of money for a lens that can't keep dust out because it's not sealed properly @ $900..

All the glass in the world won't make you competitive if you don'thave a competitive body to put it on....

You'll note I have not slandered any of the OP's pick's once, you'll notice you're not up nickelback's backside for offering the d300 or the idea he offered of ditching his glass as the OP admitted they are POS's. I simply offered up another option to consider in light of the OP's shooting style and the fact other's took liberty to do the same. get over yourself.

The review looks quite credible to me, but perhaps you can post somefiles that debunk it? Oh wait, you don't even own an E-3, you'resimply championing the Olympus brand blindly! Sure, that's realcredible against an article written by a photographer who despite anadmitted Olympus brand loyalty finds that the camera doesn't performas a flagship camera from a major manufacturer should..

Where did I discredit the article smart guy... I offered up insight from owner's. I guess my e1/351/e300 & lenses doesn't allow me to offer any opinion into the glass Oly produces which is a lot of what I referenced..

Canon's had AF problems, they addressed them (albeit reluctantly.)Nikon's had banding issues, they addressed them. If you can't do alevels adjustment or long exposure without banding, then Olympusneeds to address it, not have it's users and fans who don't even ownthe camera pretend it's not an issue..

Yet you pretend to know anything about an E3 or it's issues based on reading the same article I did. who's the hypocrite now. show me one picture you took with an E3 to show the class you speak from experience rather than review fodder like many others warranting your vitriol towards a simple opinion about considering something else..

If I were looking at a brand-new top-of-the-line camera, I'dcertainly want it to be comparable to everyone else's cameras, andI'd want to be able to do levels adjustments on the files..

Show me one e3 file you can't adjust levels with mr. professional..

The 5D and 40D are both Canon bodies- that's what the OP wants toknow about- but you seem to continually want to act the brand fanboydespite the topic the OP chooses. Given that, I choose to provide abalancing voice..

Balancing voice, I offered an option, as did other's for nikon and ditching his lenses that might be holding him back from considering other options, you decided to go off on the Oly because you think you know something about them because you read an article or two. you call that balance.... get your meter adjusted..

If you countered me and told me you bought into an E3 and lenses and found all the problems noted after shooting the kit for a few weeks and hate olympus for hanging you out for not meeting your specific needs you would more than have a leg to stand on. save that intance you are simply a whiner who can read reviews on the internet(thank you Al Gore) and bandy about your baseless opinion thinking it's factual..

OP... sorry for the sidebar but I, like others was simply offering another option and didn't feel like taking cr@p from self empowered forum police officer mr.professional paul.....

Comment #26

First of all, I would like to thank you all for your informative and helpful advice. It's really useful..

So just an update... The more I look at and read about the 40D, the more I like it. I agree in the fact that i'm not going to dig carring around all that extra heavy glass just to fit a FF camera, so that makes the 40 look even more attractive..

I got hired this summer as a photojournalist for my college newspaper, so i'm thinking of picking up a 75-200 2.8L lens (apparently touted as "the photojournalist's lens), and i'm really digging the fact that it's going to have the same effective focal value as my 100-300 f4-5.6POS..

What i'm worried about is that I have a lot of relatives that are getting married, and i'm thinking very seriously about picking up a Canon EF 85mm f/1.2 L II USM Lens. I know, I know... it's extremely pricy, but it takes absolutely butter photos, and besides it seems to me like it's a lens that you can make money with..

I guess my question at this point is that if I wanted to do portrait type stuff with that lens, would I be throwing my money away using that on a cropped frame camera? or is the difference between the 40D and the 5D with that lens pretty negligible?.

Thanks!.

-Jerrad.

EDIT: Thanks to you all for the alternative input on another camera platform, but pretty much our paper uses the canon format, so unless I want to buy a 600mm lens myself, thats what i'm stuck with...

Comment #27

Enjoy your new kit when you get it, it sounds like you are on the right path for your needs as the PJ job sounds like a great opportunity and using pool lenses more than makes sense..

Post up a couple of shots when you get a chance....

Good luck with the job and career if it all goes that way....

And again, I apologize for my part of the sidebar that wasn't the intent of my posts in the any regard..

For lens advice it seems rather than the beginner threads you might want to jump to the canon specific forums or fred miranda to get answers since it seems you've picked a direction....

Again, good luck..

Comment #28

Freealfas wrote:.

I guess in all of your "ANOTHER FANBOY RAGE" you FAILED to read thisI posted;If you are not interested in jumping ship it seems the 40d is morethan enough. despite popular opinion 35mm sensors are not foreveryone and just lead to unnecessarily heavy kit bags if notrequired by style or shooting type. If you need it, pursue it, itsounds for your type of shooting the E3/d300/40d will serve you quitewell sooner than waiting for later and all the shots you'll miss..

Throwing in a nod to the OP's choices after fanboying a brand isn't the same as simply answering their question..

However, I notice not a single image showing that the LL reviewereither had a bad sample or posted false images. Saying "It's notthat bad" ....

I guess posting a forum thread with owners offering a balancedaccounting on both sides of the LL review isn't enough for youcombined with the FACT I never said anywhere "it's not that bad" youare hallucinating about..

Again, the "balanced accouting" is just text saying "it's not that bad" not actual examples debunking or pointing out errors in the LL article. There are also no rebuttals on the LL site..

"I don't think that the Olympus E3 will ever be taken seriouslyamongst most working photographers, who, (like myself)...".

I guess the pro's using it didn't get the pro memo that goes out toall the pro's only about not considering it as there are a few Isuspect making money with one or more..

Anyone can make money with almost any camera- that's not a measure of the tool itself..

So all it takes to call yourself a "pro" is 15 pictures of "somerecent works which are perfect to dress up any decor and bringinterest and beauty to your home or office" on a website... thatsounds more like an interior decorator but if that's the case sign meup because then I can go around the forums and throw a fit aboutsomeone offering an Oly up as an option..

While I don't have to defend what I happen to put online to you, I've got published work in books, catalogs and the like and do lots of other commercial work, but it's all local or through personal contacts. Throwing a few fine art images online to test the market is easy, but certainly isn't representative of anything other than my fine art work, which is doing quite well thanks. Let's see your burgeoning studio though....

Also FWIW, I've asked Imagekind for some specific changes that, if they make them will have me upgrading from the free account I'm testing with, at which point a significantly larger portion of my fine art catalog will appear there- but I started with what's being exhibited locally so that folks who don't want to purchase in store can do so online..

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...022&message=27623506&q=e3+d300&qf=m.

The E-3 has more noise than the Nikons, I think we already knew that from the examples posted in the DPR reviews..

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=25713591.

"At this point we can't comment on image quality, because what we saw wasn't final, but overall mechanical performance was quite good.".

Who's going to be disappointed now....

Not me, I'm not a brand fanboy- and your "evidence" isn't all that compelling. Nor are S/N ratio measurements all that interesting when the empirical evidence shows at least a stop's worth of nose difference..

While that might disappoint the fanboy, it's useful information for aphotographer who's looking for a tool rather than a brand statement.Some tools are better than other tools, and if you can't get simplelevels adjustments without banding, then the E-3 is a poorer toolthan any of the alternatives *including* the two tools the OPoriginally asked about..

You'll note I never one said it was a better tool, I simply said itwas a tool worth considering if taking an opportunity to do so..

Again, the OP was asking about the 40D and 5D- Pentax, Nikon and Sony users didn't all chime in- and if they did on every single Canon thread like you seem to do, then this site would be even less useful to people seeking advice about specific things..

"... throwing in a third that's substandard isn't ananswer, it's simply brandstanding..

You really think highly of your own opinion... substandard, that'sfunny... what do you tell to the 1dmkIII crowd that spent stupidmoney and can't get a reliable focus or the 17-55 f2.8 usm owner thatspent a ton of money for a lens that can't keep dust out because itsnot sealed properly @ $900..

I'd tell the 1DIII owner to upgrade their firmware to 1.1.5, and if they still have problems, send it in for a warranty repair. Frankly though, I'd have advised them to wait to purchase the camera until it's performance had been validated and it's manufacturer had addressed any issues, just like I'd advise anyone looking at the D3 or E3..

All the glass in the world won't make you competitive if you don'thave a competitive body to put it on....

You'll note I have not slandered any of the OP's pick's once, you'llnotice you're not up nickelback's backside for offering the d300 orthe idea he offered of ditching his glass as the OP admitted they arePOS's. I simply offered up another option to consider in light ofthe OP's shooting style and the fact other's took liberty to do thesame. get over yourself.

Funny how you always seem to offer the same "option to consider," no matter what other cameras a poster asks about specifically. I hope Olympus is paying you for your continuous sales pitches..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #29

Paul Robertson wrote:.

Throwing in a nod to the OP's choices after fanboying a brand isn'tthe same as simply answering their question..

If I was answering your post then you might be entitled to an opinion about that, I answered the question directly, you simply didn't like the way I did it..

Anyone can make money with almost any camera- that's not a measure ofthe tool itself..

Then why say what you did despite having no direct experience with what you so vehemently criticize? why not just shut up about the Oly and let someone else have an OPINION, tell the class that..

Let's see your burgeoning studio though....

The world is my studio... how'd you like that one... pretty good huh?I never called myself a pro....

Also FWIW, I've asked Imagekind for some specific changes that, ifthey make them will have me upgrading from the free account I'mtesting with, at which point a significantly larger portion of myfine art catalog will appear there- but I started with what's beingexhibited locally so that folks who don't want to purchase in storecan do so online..

You really think a lot of yourself and your opinions attempting to rationalize them at every opportunity with I did this, and I did that, yet you have yet to admit to never having handled anything you are convinced of your opinion about. tell me you have and I'll go away, if you can't then shut up already..

Not me, I'm not a brand fanboy- and your "evidence" isn't all thatcompelling. Nor are S/N ratio measurements all that interesting whenthe empirical evidence shows at least a stop's worth of nosedifference..

Based in YOUR experience, nope didn't think so....

Again, the OP was asking about the 40D and 5D- Pentax, Nikon and Sonyusers didn't all chime in- and if they did on every single Canonthread like you seem to do, then this site would be even less usefulto people seeking advice about specific things..

Maybe if a thread about a 40d and 5d was posted in a Canon specific forum we wouldn't be having this discussion but since it's not maybe, just maybe that opens it up to people that have different ideas and opinions about things, did you once think of that one?.

2nd post in thread - guidenet"Or you could come over to the good side of the force and get a nice D300 ".

Nickelback -.

"You want more than 3 FPS, the 5D isn't for you. Get a 40D. Or spend more money on a D3, D300, 1D3, etc. Don't be locked in due to your lenses, you admit they're POS.".

Reading seems lost on you in your blind rage against all things not canon or nikon apparently.

I'd tell the 1DIII owner to upgrade their firmware to 1.1.5, and ifthey still have problems, send it in for a warranty repair. Franklythough, I'd have advised them to wait to purchase the camera untilits performance had been validated and it's manufacturer had addressedany issues, just like I'd advise anyone looking at the D3 or E3..

How come you wouldn't consider them substandard like you consider the E3 all things considered and in light or a $5-7k camera that can't focus a far more egregious offense tying the hands of a pro making money with a tool that doesn't work as opposed to the LL reviewer that still despite it's foibles still uses it as his daily tool..

Personally, I'd rather be labeled a fan boy than a hypocrite, but that's just me, you go through life as you see fit....

Funny how you always seem to offer the same "option to consider," nomatter what other cameras a poster asks about specifically. I hopeOlympus is paying you for your continuous sales pitches..

Wow, let's think about this, I have direct experience with a bag full of Oly gear I can speak about unlike you. I can offer opinions based in fact and ownership or I can be like you and offer opinion based in... hmmmm, thinking... YES... that's it,.

NOTHING..

If you read the threads around here you will find pentax shooters, nikon shooters, et al offering their "options to consider" as well leaving me NO reason to do that for them. if you'll also note more often than not I leave it with the standard, hit a store, play with them, etc. leaving the OP to choose what they may. I still have yet to see you react the same way to anyone else offering up another option leaving me to believe you are simply a pro with nothing to shoot and cruise forums bandying about your dislike of Oly as that is all you have really done..

You offer your expansive career, fine art, web site pics, blah, blah, blah, as warranting of an opinion about a camera I'd venture to guess you've never handled yet alone shot with. This forum if you think about it would run a whole lot better without know it all's like yourself..

You dodged it once already, address this directly or get over it;.

You pretend to know anything about an E3 or it's issues based on reading the same article I did. who's the hypocrite now. show me one picture you took with an E3 to show the class you speak from experience rather than review fodder like many others warranting your vitriol towards a simple opinion about considering something else..

Last I knew I was entitled to an opinion, last I knew I could express that in an open forum, last I saw nowhere saying you were/are the de facto voice of "balance" around here as there are other's far more qualified for that role I suspect... move on already.....

Comment #30

Freealfas wrote:.

Paul Robertson wrote:.

Throwing in a nod to the OP's choices after fanboying a brand isn'tthe same as simply answering their question..

If I was answering your post then you might be entitled to an opinionabout that, I answered the question directly, you simply didn't likethe way I did it..

Look at every single recent post you have in this forum, then objectively tell me you seriously don't come off as a brand fanboy..

Anyone can make money with almost any camera- that's not a measure ofthe tool itself..

Then why say what you did despite having no direct experience withwhat you so vehemently criticize? why not just shut up about the Olyand let someone else have an OPINION, tell the class that..

I don't have to shut up, I've got as much right to post here as you do. Get over yourself and understand that your rabid fanboyism isn't a good thing..

Let's see your burgeoning studio though....

The world is my studio... how'd you like that one... pretty good huh?.

Not really, it's as kitchy as every time everyone else has ever used it..

I never called myself a pro....

There are plenty of pro fanboys, there are plenty of amateurs with studios too..

Not me, I'm not a brand fanboy- and your "evidence" isn't all thatcompelling. Nor are S/N ratio measurements all that interesting whenthe empirical evidence shows at least a stop's worth of nosedifference..

Based in YOUR experience, nope didn't think so....

Based on my experience viewing the output, yes. There are plenty of samples up for evaluation, as well as the shots on the DPR reviews..

Maybe if a thread about a 40d and 5d was posted in a Canon specificforum we wouldn't be having this discussion but since it's not maybe,just maybe that opens it up to people that have different ideas andopinions about things, did you once think of that one?.

Maybe if you weren't a rabid fanboy we wouldn't be having this conversation either..

Reading seems lost on you in your blind rage against all things notcanon or nikon apparently.

No, they just don't pop into every non-Nikon thread advocating Nikon. Blind rage- that's funny, you're the one with he emotional attachment to a brand..

I'd tell the 1DIII owner to upgrade their firmware to 1.1.5, and ifthey still have problems, send it in for a warranty repair. Franklythough, I'd have advised them to wait to purchase the camera untilits performance had been validated and it's manufacturer had addressedany issues, just like I'd advise anyone looking at the D3 or E3..

How come you wouldn't consider them substandard like you consider theE3 all things considered and in light or a $5-7k camera that can'tfocus a far more egregious offense tying the hands of a pro makingmoney with a tool that doesn't work as opposed to the LL reviewerthat still despite it's foibles still uses it as his daily tool..

I don't consider them substandard because they don't *all* exhibit the same flaws, and because the manufacturers are addressing the flaws- if Oly addresses the noise issues, the AF issues, and the apparent banding issues, then I wouldn't consider the E-3 substandard. It's the first Oly that seems to have dynamic range that's in the same range as even the entry-level cameras from everyone else bar Pentax..

Substandard means below the standard. The images I've evaluated from the D3 haven't been substandard, neither have those from the Canon pro bodies. When Sony ships it's "pro" body then the images can be measured against the current generation of pro bodies and we'll see if it's substandard or not. Just because your favorite manufacturer's "pro" offering doesn't seem up to par doesn't mean you should get upset at me for it- I didn't rush it to market without making sure it could hang with the big boys..

Last I knew I was entitled to an opinion, last I knew I could expressthat in an open forum, last I saw nowhere saying you were/are the defacto voice of "balance" around here as there are other's far morequalified for that role I suspect... move on already....

Just like you get to post, I get to post too- I don't need anyone to crown me the defacto voice of anything. If you stop behaving like a rabid fanboy in every thread that mentions choices between offerings that aren't Olympus, then you'll see that I won't respond..

Gotta go now, got a portrait session to shoot..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #31

Paul Robertson wrote:.

Look at every single recent post you have in this forum, thenobjectively tell me you seriously don't come off as a brand fanboy..

I'm good with that as I'd rather not be the hypocrite you are as I've mentioned..

I don't have to shut up, I've got as much right to post here as youdo. Get over yourself and understand that your rabid fanboyism isn'ta good thing..

As opposed to your blinded belief that there are only 2 options in the photographic world and the rest are "also rans" based on sales figures..

Based on my experience viewing the output, yes. There are plenty ofsamples up for evaluation, as well as the shots on the DPR reviews..

Amazing what a simple flickr search can surprise you with;.

Http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=olympus+e3&page=4.

Http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=olympus+e3&page=5.

Banding everywhere, poor DR in every one... yeah, you reviewed images...right.

My guess is you haven't spent more than 2 mins reviewing any of the output available online before coming to you enlightened conclusions about substandard, banding, etc.. like I said hypocrite through and through....

Maybe if you weren't a rabid fanboy we wouldn't be having thisconversation either..

What and roll over to a pompus a like yourself... nah, this is fun....

Reading seems lost on you in your blind rage against all things notcanon or nikon apparently.

No, they just don't pop into every non-Nikon thread advocating Nikon.Blind rage- that's funny, you're the one with he emotional attachmentto a brand..

I've seen nickelback and guidnets names around more than a few times and if you pay attention I'm not the only one throwing out Oly's more than once as an option to consider yet you fail to react the same way to them... I just think you like me best..

I don't consider them substandard because they don't *all* exhibitthe same flaws, and because the manufacturers are addressing theflaws- if Oly addresses the noise issues, the AF issues, and theapparent banding issues, then I wouldn't consider the E-3substandard. It's the first Oly that seems to have dynamic rangethat's in the same range as even the entry-level cameras fromeveryone else bar Pentax..

Addresses the noise issue, what's the mystery at this point they are with each new camera as high ISO hasn't been a strong suit, they give that away to canon/nikon, that's it though. they are never going to shoot ISO 1.25million like everyone seems to think they need now that the mp war has fallen aside to be replaced by this bandwagon for those like you to jump on. to add you are simply talking cr@p with comments like an e3 finally matching entry level cameras..

I LOVE your hypocrisy presenting itself given any opportunity though. look at more than 3 E3 images and tell me with a straight face that they "all" suffer from the problems SOME have reported. review the Oly forum and do a search for threads about banding from OWNERS as opposed to biased opinions from yourself who's never held one yet alone shot one..

Substandard means below the standard. The images I've evaluated fromthe D3 haven't been substandard, neither have those from the Canonpro bodies. When Sony ships it's "pro" body then the images can bemeasured against the current generation of pro bodies and we'll seeif it's substandard or not. Just because your favoritemanufacturer's "pro" offering doesn't seem up to par doesn't mean youshould get upset at me for it- I didn't rush it to market withoutmaking sure it could hang with the big boys..

Not up to par, it must be nice to have it all figured out like you do..

Speaking of rushing to market... funny you should mention that as according to you it's not substandard for a $7k pro camera to not focus costing the pro that bought it billable hours using it because it's in the shop... Oh no that's right, canon tried to just say that's not really happening to our flagship and it sat in the bag unused until Canon decided to acknowledge it actually had a problem, nope, none of that ever happened, who's kidding who?.

Oly's the ONLY company that has had banding issues or any issues banding or otherwise, d200 banding ring a bell, nikon sat on that one it seems much like canon did with the 1dmkIII, again who's kidding who about the measure of substandard, either apply the term fairly to all or simply admit your bias which you seem more than a little in denial of..

Just like you get to post, I get to post too- I don't need anyone tocrown me the defacto voice of anything. If you stop behaving like arabid fanboy in every thread that mentions choices between offeringsthat aren't Olympus, then you'll see that I won't respond..

I've made no bones about enjoying my kit, I just haven't done it while making comments I have no business making about cameras I have no experience with like you have..

Is it that scary to think that Olympus could put out a capable system worth considering. ask the canon & nikon pro's that have bought an e3 or e510 simply to be able to have access to the 7-14mm, same idea as the LL guy having the canon backup to his e3, everyone wants the tool that will do the job they need it to do and for some as big a surprise as this may be to you, an e3 is that tool..

I know it's tough to imagine a world with a tool other than a canon or nikon but indeed that is the world we live in..

BTW - I'll take the fan boy label if you take the hypocrite label and we can call it a draw.....

Comment #32

You might be right after all, you must have been looking at these when you were thoughtfully considering the E3's expansive and problematic DR issues....

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27717084.

I get it now, thanks for helping me work through that.....

Comment #33

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