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How much Post Processing?
Hi,.

I'm am just going from a P&S to a DSLR (I'm getting a Canon XT (Or and XTi, if the stocks run out before I have enough money). I have been lurking on many forums, and the consensus seems to be that some post-processing needs to happen on the photos in order for them to look their best. Or, better than P&S photos..

Assuming I'm shooting in JPEG(fine), what are the usual modifications? And what programs (preferably not over ~$100) do you recommend? I use Mac. What about RAW? This is uncharted territory for me, is the RAW converter supplied with the camera good enough for most things? What can you do with RAW that makes this format so important? I can't seem to find enough information on these things, it's quite maddening..

Sorry for the rather simplistic questions, and thank you for any input..

Nihar..

Comments (42)

I have some canon lenses from my father's 35mm SLR camera, and my P&S is also Canon. I'm used to the menu layouts and the controls (of the 35mm SLR)..

Nihar..

Comment #1

I wouldn't even think about shooting in RAW for at least a year....

Learn your camera and how to shoot with a DSLR first....

Once you've got that down and your shots look good, then tackle the RAW thing....

IPhoto 08 will get the job done for minor post tweaking....

And pick up the expodisc... that will address the WB issue you might face when not shooting in RAW....

It makes no sense to shoot in RAW if you have yet to master your D-SLR.....

Comment #2

I had a P&S canon as well... and went with nikon....

I just want to challenge people because it's a big deal which line you're going to start out with... because for most people they won't turn back once they've picked one line over the other....

For me, 80% of the reason I choose nikon was how the cameras felt in the hand over the canons... the rebels ergonomics sucked in my hands, and hurt after just a few minutes.....

Comment #3

Thehickoks wrote:.

I wouldn't even think about shooting in RAW for at least a year....

This is a bit uncalled for. I shot RAW when I wasn't too experienced with it and I had good results. You don't need to be a pro to deal with RAW. I feel like everybody puts RAW on this huge "you-must-be-experienced" pedestal. One good thing about raw is that even if you do mess up a bit, you have more latitude than jpegs. So if you take a good picture starting out, you can always go back and make it better later.



Learn your camera and how to shoot with a DSLR first....

True. But it's also cool to experiment. I like being hands on..

Once you've got that down and your shots look good, then tackle theRAW thing....

I'd actually do it the other way around. Once you learn RAW, you'll probably use it all the time, so might as well get it out of the way. Composition or getting nice shots is very subjective so it can't really be learned. That's something you develop over time or depending on location. If you don't know some basic post processing, you could be taking good pictures but if you can't get a handle on the software or RAW, you would be limiting their potential..

And pick up the expodisc... that will address the WB issue you mightface when not shooting in RAW....

Or a WhiBal card. Or even maybe try a coffee filter. Some people say coffee filters work but I haven't used them..

It makes no sense to shoot in RAW if you have yet to master yourD-SLR....

I don't think so....

For me, 80% of the reason I choose nikon was how the cameras felt in the hand >over the canons... the rebels ergonomics sucked in my hands, and hurt after just >a few minutes....

I actually agree with this completely - but I chose Canon because Nikon had too many buttons and I didn't like how it felt in my hands, lol..

We are like complete opposites, huh?..

Comment #4

Glitched wrote:.

Thehickoks wrote:.

I wouldn't even think about shooting in RAW for at least a year....

This is a bit uncalled for. I shot RAW when I wasn't too experiencedwith it and I had good results. You don't need to be a pro to dealwith RAW. I feel like everybody puts RAW on this huge"you-must-be-experienced" pedestal..

I'm sure you did get good results..

I never said you had to be a pro to deal with RAW..

RAW should not be put on a pedestal..

One good thing about raw is that even if you do mess up a bit, you have more >latitude than jpegs. So if you take a good picture starting out, you can always go >back and make it better later..

I don't believe you should have that latitude in the first year or two... it forces the user to learn how to take good shots via the camera, and not manufacture good results via post..

RAW allows the user to become lazy since they can "fix" the shots later instead of getting it right the first time..

I don't want to be great at taking mediocre images and making them good via post processing... I want to be great at taking good shots instead of mediocre ones to begin with....

Anyone can put lipstick on a pig....

Learn your camera and how to shoot with a DSLR first....

True. But it's also cool to experiment. I like being hands on..

As do I....

Once you've got that down and your shots look good, then tackle theRAW thing....

I'd actually do it the other way around. Once you learn RAW, you'llprobably use it all the time, so might as well get it out of the way.Composition or getting nice shots is very subjective so it can'treally be learned..

Strongly disagree... it can be learned... simply go back and look at the shots you were taking a few years ago and see how you LEARNED to take better shots....

Mastering your camera is far more important then learning how to make mediocre shots look good in post...

Comment #5

And pick up the expodisc... that will address the WB issue you mightface when not shooting in RAW....

Or a WhiBal card. Or even maybe try a coffee filter. Some people saycoffee filters work but I haven't used them..

I'm sorry, complete newbie here. What is an expodisc or WhiBal card? Are they the cards that you use with the custom white balance function?.

Thanks,Nihar..

Comment #6

Thehickoks wrote:.

Glitched wrote:.

Thehickoks wrote:.

I wouldn't even think about shooting in RAW for at least a year....

This is a bit uncalled for. I shot RAW when I wasn't too experiencedwith it and I had good results. You don't need to be a pro to dealwith RAW. I feel like everybody puts RAW on this huge"you-must-be-experienced" pedestal..

I'm sure you did get good results..

I never said you had to be a pro to deal with RAW..

RAW should not be put on a pedestal..

I'm not saying it's you specifically, but I feel like a lot of people in general consider RAW something advanced, when it shouldn't be. It's just another starting format..

One good thing about raw is that even if you do mess up a bit, you have more >latitude than jpegs. So if you take a good picture starting out, you can always go >back and make it better later..

I don't believe you should have that latitude in the first year ortwo... it forces the user to learn how to take good shots via thecamera, and not manufacture good results via post..

RAW allows the user to become lazy since they can "fix" the shotslater instead of getting it right the first time..

I don't want to be great at taking mediocre images and making themgood via post processing... I want to be great at taking good shotsinstead of mediocre ones to begin with....

Maybe I'm overestimating human nature then. I can see lots of people just taking the band-aid cure though. But sometimes you can't always capture certain situations and have them look good straight from the camera, even if you do know things - slow lens, high iso noise, too much dynamic range, etc. Lots of beginners start off with a limited budget, equipment, and experience as well, so sometimes you do have to fake it if you want a certain look to your images, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I like to be really minimal in my images, so that it looks natural, like nothing was done to it, even if it doesn't POP in the end..

If somebody is really into photography, both aspects should come naturally to them - taking the picture and enhancing it after. Ying and Yang, you know?.

Anyone can put lipstick on a pig....

Lol. I think you're taking this TOO seriously..

Learn your camera and how to shoot with a DSLR first....

True. But it's also cool to experiment. I like being hands on..

As do I....

Once you've got that down and your shots look good, then tackle theRAW thing....

I'd actually do it the other way around. Once you learn RAW, you'llprobably use it all the time, so might as well get it out of the way.Composition or getting nice shots is very subjective so it can'treally be learned..

Strongly disagree... it can be learned... simply go back and look atthe shots you were taking a few years ago and see how you LEARNED totake better shots....

What I mean is that there's not a lot of rules of "better shots". Maybe on the technical side you can easily define a better shot - rule of thirds, in focus, not blurred, etc, but creatively or aesthetically, it's style-wise too. What one person may like another one may hate: it all depends on what people's standards are..

Mastering your camera is far more important then learning how to makemediocre shots look good in post..

Yet again, I disagree! They're both equally important...

Comment #7

Niharb wrote:.

I'm sorry, complete newbie here. What is an expodisc or WhiBal card?Are they the cards that you use with the custom white balancefunction?.

Yes, they both give you the correct white balance, using the custom white-balance, although you can also set the white balance after on your computer if you want..

The Expodisc is a filter you put over your camera. It makes it like an incident meter. You take a picture of the lightsource you're working in (usually the place where your subject will be - it can be a general area though), set that as the custom white balance and you get good color..

Http://www.expoimaging.net/...ucts/products.php?catid=1&category=ExpoDisc.

The WhiBal is a neutral colored card. It is NOT meant to calculate exposure though. It works similarly to the Expodisc - you put the card in the lightsource you're working from, but now you have 2 options of how you can take your picture. If you want to use the custom white balance on the camera, you're going to need to have the WhiBal card fill a lot of the frame (at least a lot of the center) before you can select it. Otherwise it might pick up on something else and give you the wrong colors. You can also take a picture with the card regardless of it's size and location and then use the white balance tool in post processing on the card in one image and apply that result to any images that had the same lighting.

Choose one preset and leave it. With RAW this doesn't make that much of a difference, but with JPEGs, the color temperature is almost hardwired into the image and if auto white balance changes the colors from image to image, doing a correction from a test shot won't work as well, so you need consistency. The reason WhiBal is popular because it's tested with a spectrophotometer and the company tells what specificiations and has very high standards - not all competitions release the way they make their cards..

Http://www.rawworkflow.com/products/whibal/index.html.

You'll find lots of "WhiBal vs Expodisc" topics on the internet, but I think they're both important tools. I only own a WhiBal however...

Comment #8

I totally disagree when people say you should learn imaging with the camera before learning post, or that post is manufacturing good photos rather than creating them in your camera..

Post processing is your digital darkroom. Since the begining we've done post work as part of the image creation. We often spent more time and money on our darkroom CREATING photographs than we did behind the camera. We're not Xeroxing what we see. We're creating what we imagine. We're not trying to copy reality.

To make a statement..

That is the diffence between Ansel Adams and a snap-shooter. Not only did they spend hours behind the camera, but Adams and other great photographers spent hours and hours in the darkroom bringing out what they wanted. That's why their prints changed dramatically over the years, printing the same negative..

So, go ahead and don't be afraid to buy good post processing equipment from the start, and don't be afraid to learn how to process RAW images from day one. That's part of the skill, talent and art of photography just as much as making the original negative or digital capture..

One of the disadvantages with asking questions on the Web is that you often get answers from techno-weenies who don't make many good images, but do collect good equipment. Especially don't listen to the people who suggest that post processing is not part of photography. Step out and learn it all. More importantly, have fun learning it all...

Comment #9

The answer to your question is as much as you want. I use Lightroom and can initially process around 200 photos in 1-3 hours. If I want to just create Jpegs that the camera would have given me then this will take about 5 minutes in canon's software DPP..

The software supplied by Canon is fine to start off with. Later you may want to try different software..

If you don't shoot RAW from day one you will eventually come to regret this once you do finally start shooting RAW..

You may find it more comfortable to shoot RAW + Jpeg to start with and see how it goes. Save the RAW files for later (you will be glad you did).Markhttp://www.pbase.com/derisley..

Comment #10

Since you are a Mac user, you can pretty much shoot whatever you want. RAW support is built into the OS and you can use iPhoto a little post processing or use Aperture, which I like quite a bit. Aperture 2.0, the newest version, has quite a bit of raw processing features built in and it's quite easy to use. It's nice because all edits are done non destructively and you never deal with the actual image file, you just create a tag along file of the edits you want done and it creates a version of the master. Download the free 30 day trial of Aperture from Apples site and play with it, the price of admission is right..

RAW is nothing to be afraid of, it's actually something that you should embrace as a good friend. It saves more image data with much more detail about things like color depth, exposure, subtile things that can make or break an image in the end. One of the neat things about RAW is that as your skills develop, you can re visit an old image and re process it with a new vision and with new knowledge and experience do something entirely different than what you did the first time..

Depending which camera your Dad had, his lenses might work. If he had a Canon EOS that took the EF series of lenses they should work, unless they are very early EF, there are some that don't make the crossover. If they are from the earlier F and A series of cameras, an "FD" lens, they will work but you have to purchase an adapter and you lose all automatic function. I would still make a plan to replace them in the future, lenses designed for film, especially older ones, are not made for the digital process, and as such you'll lose a bit of image quality because film and digital react differently and the newer lenses are designed for that difference...

Comment #11

Thank you all for your input, I'm sorry I haven't had time to reply but I've been moving and my internet time was limited..

I think now I'll get PS elements (I recall using it in high school, so hopefully it will be familiar territory) for my Mac, and experiment with RAW but mainly use JPEG. From what I see on B&H, there is only a version for PowerPC. Now I'm updating quite soon to a MacBook, will it still work on an Intel based Mac? 'Cause I don't want to have to buy another program. Or I can not get any program now, and use what comes with the camera until I get the MacBook and get Aperture 2 with it. Has anyone tried out Aperture 2?.

Thank you again, and sorry for the delay in responding..

Nihar..

Comment #12

Glitched wrote:.

...Or even maybe try a coffee filter. Some people saycoffee filters work but I haven't used them..

I can attest that they DO work. I used one this morning. The coffee is fine and has NO grounds in the pot. .

...We are like complete opposites, huh?.

Probably. I just use a white sheet of paper and set a custom WB....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #13

Niharb...I completley agree with Mark. shoot RAW+Jpeg from the start. Just save the RAW files somewhere because after you start playing around with RAW and get to see it's value you'll be glad you have some of your pics saved in that format.'If YOU like the shot...it's a good shot'..

Comment #14

Niharb wrote:.

Thank you all for your input, I'm sorry I haven't had time to replybut I've been moving and my internet time was limited..

I think now I'll get PS elements (I recall using it in high school,so hopefully it will be familiar territory) for my Mac, andexperiment with RAW but mainly use JPEG. From what I see on B&H,there is only a version for PowerPC. Now I'm updating quite soon toa MacBook, will it still work on an Intel based Mac? 'Cause I don'twant to have to buy another program. Or I can not get any programnow, and use what comes with the camera until I get the MacBook andget Aperture 2 with it. Has anyone tried out Aperture 2?.

Thank you again, and sorry for the delay in responding..

Nihar.

There is a new version of Elements (version 6) for the Mac coming out in early April. It requires OS 10.4 or 10.5. If you're still using 10.3, as I am on a couple of machines, you'll want to pick up Elements-4 while it's still available. Amazon has both..

I've used GraphicConverter for many years for quick cropping, resizing, and minor editing. It will also convert between a hundred or so file formats. It's a $35 shareware. Of course, iPhoto comes with the Mac so I assume you already have it..

At this point, I find that the camera's RAW processor does better than I can. I shoot mainly JPEGs and an occasional RAW just to experiment.DavidDallas, TX..

Comment #15

Going back to the original question, which has been a little neglected in favour of the discussion about RAW - you can definitely produce ready-to-use images with a 400D (XTi) with zero post-processing. Simply turn up the sharpness and contrast and you will get punchy images every time - subject to the lighting conditions of course..

What you can't do is get images which look like P&S images. These tend to be over-processed, with aggressive noise reduction, too much sharpening, and automatic levels adjustment. Not something I would want to emulate with my DSLR!.

Interestingly, the soon-to-be-on-the-shelves 450D has a mode which does an auto levels adjustment (they call it something else, I forget the name). The idea is to produce more satisfying images for beginners. I'm undecided what to think about that...

Comment #16

Hi. If you are shooting jpegs you are limited in what you can do compared to raw. They are 8 bit files compared to 16 bit raw. This means that you can make greater moves to a raw file than jpeg. There is more post processing with raw the jpeg but I feel that it is worth it. I would try both and see what you prefer.



Please check out my work at http://brucekersten.com.

Best regards and I hope this helps..

Comment #17

Thehickoks wrote:.

I had a P&S canon as well... and went with nikon....

I just want to challenge people because it's a big deal which lineyou're going to start out with... because for most people they won'tturn back once they've picked one line over the other....

For me, 80% of the reason I choose nikon was how the cameras felt inthe hand over the canons... the rebels ergonomics sucked in my hands,and hurt after just a few minutes....

And you think that everyone's hands are like yours?.

Why try to start a Canon vs Nikon war in a thread thats got nothing to do with Canon vs Nikon?.

My gallery - Feel free to C&Chttp://www.DiniOnline.com..

Comment #18

And you think that everyone's hands are like yours?.

Yes.

Why try to start a Canon vs Nikon war in a thread thats got nothingto do with Canon vs Nikon?.

I wasn't trying to start a war..

Are you?..

Comment #19

I don't think you HAVE to post process always or even often with a DSLR..

Now I'll preface this by saying I almost always shoot RAW, but I basically like post processing, and it's not to everyone's taste..

Many, many people are quite happy shooting JPEGs and just adjusting the camera's parameters ( sharpness, saturation, etc. )..

Some of this has to do with your ability to use your camera, some to your personal requirements..

I think post processing offers far more possibilities than straight from the camera shooting - you'd be amazed what you can get from an image with only a little knowledge. You really can, with a little practice, get that little bit extra from your shots..

But you will get better results than your P&S gives with a DSLR. You might not notice in a family snap in daylight, but when the light gets challenging or the scene become otherwise harder you will see the difference. You should see fewer over-exposed shots ( blown highlights ) for example ( a combination of better metering and better dynamic range in the DSLR )..

So overall, no you don't HAVE to post process, but YES it will open more options to you, especially if you learn to use RAW ( not as scary as people make out )..

StephenG.

Pentax K100DFuji S5200Fuji E900PCLinuxOS..

Comment #20

Nihar:.

It seems as though several folks have hijacked your post. I will attempt to get back to your original question..

I shoot JPEGS exclusively. When I retire next year, I will learn to use RAW. My photos generally are pretty good out of the camera, but they need some photoprocessing to make them pop. Here is what I do..

I use a custom white balance whenever I take photos indoors with artificial light. For this, I simply use a white piece of paper. Another option is to use the white eyedropper in Levels on a white surface (for example, a wall)..

I load my JPEGS into Photoshop, make a copy, and make all the adjustments on the copy. First, I adjust Levels (or sometimes I use Curves). Then, if necessary, I adjust Contrast or Brightness (it seldom is necessary). Finally, I use USM to increase sharpness. When done, I save the copy and I am done..

I realize that all this is a major shortcut with which real photographers will find fault. However, it works pretty well (see some of my photos at http://jchoate.zenfolio.com) and it is quick. When I am no longer working and have more time, I will teach myself to do it the right way..

Jerryhttp://jchoate.zenfolio.com/..

Comment #21

There is a new version of Elements (version 6) for the Mac coming outin early April. It requires OS 10.4 or 10.5. If you're still using10.3, as I am on a couple of machines, you'll want to pick upElements-4 while it's still available. Amazon has both..

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that there was a new version coming out, and I'll definitely look into it. Some of my computers are still on 10.3, but my most used ones are 10.4 or 10.5, so the newer version would be most used..

ThanksNihar..

Comment #22

But you will get better results than your P&S gives with a DSLR. Youmight not notice in a family snap in daylight, but when the lightgets challenging or the scene become otherwise harder you will seethe difference. You should see fewer over-exposed shots ( blownhighlights ) for example ( a combination of better metering andbetter dynamic range in the DSLR )..

Thanks for the reply, and yes my biggest gripe with P&S is how it just dies in difficult situations, and most of my photos are indoors with available light. I'm really looking forward to using the DSLR. I think I'll experiment with RAW before really totally switching over..

Thanks again,.

Nihar..

Comment #23

I use a custom white balance whenever I take photos indoors withartificial light. For this, I simply use a white piece of paper.Another option is to use the white eyedropper in Levels on a whitesurface (for example, a wall)..

The yellow or blue tinge is what I notice the most with my photos, I am really looking forward to better pictures with a better white balance. I've already made it a habit with my P&S to use my custom white balance, but it's still not 100%..

I load my JPEGS into Photoshop, make a copy, and make all theadjustments on the copy. First, I adjust Levels (or sometimes I useCurves). Then, if necessary, I adjust Contrast or Brightness (itseldom is necessary). Finally, I use USM to increase sharpness.When done, I save the copy and I am done..

This is probably all I will end up doing as well, thank you for the detailed answer.

When I am no longer working and have more time, I will teach myselfto do it the right way..

Ditto, I don't have all the time in the world to spend adjusting each picture I shoot and I look forward to the day that I can..

Thank you for your answer, it was most helpful.

Nihar..

Comment #24

Set the camera to boos color saturation and sharpness. Pretty much what most P&S do..

I'd recommend RAW, for when exposure or whie balance is off, makes for a quick and easy fix..

As for post proccessing, most of us get anal and want perfection..

Post processing allows us to fix, that which we should have fixed, before we took the stupid picture..

Dave PattersonMidwestshutterbug.com'When the light and composition are strong, nobodynotices things like resolution or pincushion distortion'Gary Friedman..

Comment #25

Niharb wrote:.

I load my JPEGS into Photoshop, make a copy, and make all theadjustments on the copy. First, I adjust Levels (or sometimes I useCurves). Then, if necessary, I adjust Contrast or Brightness (itseldom is necessary). Finally, I use USM to increase sharpness.When done, I save the copy and I am done..

This is probably all I will end up doing as well, thank you for thedetailed answer.

When I am no longer working and have more time, I will teach myselfto do it the right way..

Ditto, I don't have all the time in the world to spend adjusting eachpicture I shoot and I look forward to the day that I can..

I'm retired and I STILL don't have "all the time in the world". This past weekend, I took over 1100 pix. I threw away about 10%, then sorted through the rest and ended up with 150+ that I wanted to PP..

I'm glad a found LightRoom (I'm a LR fan). With it, I can set a "Preset" that applies SOME of the changes that I always do...things like Presence=25 and Vibrance=18, plus the sharpening and NR settings that I want. I then apply these to ALL 1100 pix before I start. It's easy to create one or more "Presets" that can even be applied automatically when I download the pix..

I can also find pix that need similar PP, since the lighting and subject were the same. Then I can select this group and do them together...things like exposure, WB, fill light, brightness, contrast, saturation, etc. Voila!.

I then crop and straighten individual pix and lastly set a selection flag and a "star" rating..

If I need to do something special, I export the pix to PSE6 and use selections and layers to restrict what the changes apply to. If the noise level is high, I often use NoiseWare Pro in PSE6, as I like it for removing high noise levels..

Don't think though, that I'm suggesting that YOU have to use MY process! You will develop your own approach when you retire and have all the time in the world... .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #26

Midwest Shutterbug wrote:.

Set the camera to boos color saturation and sharpness. Pretty muchwhat most P&S do..

Please don't do this. First of all it makes no difference to RAW files ( if you do that ) and secondly it's impossible to reverse in JPEGs. As it's trivial to do in post processing like this there is no point in irreversibly changing your original. Saturation messes up white balance very badly and sharpness is a pixel-level change that there is absolutely no way to undo..

With some P&S cameras and DSLRs I'd suggest you actually tone down saturation and sharpness a little, as the defaults are set to "crowd pleasing" levels..

I'd recommend RAW, for when exposure or whie balance is off, makesfor a quick and easy fix..

To clarify, Raw gives you greater latitude with white balance, but it's not easier ( or more difficult ) or quicker that with JPEG in terms of doing it, just in terms of how much you can do..

RAW is certainly handy for some exposure issues, but I'd suggest this is the one area where it is vital to learn to expose well. This minimizes noise, and less noise means less noise reduction and more detail in the final image..

As for post proccessing, most of us get anal and want perfection..

Until we notice how much time that takes. .

Post processing allows us to fix, that which we should have fixed,before we took the stupid picture..

That's a common statement but it's not generally true ( I suspect Dave meant it partly tongue in cheek ? ). White balance, for example, is not something you reliably can get right at shot time except in a few special cases. You can get close, but it's arguable what correct white balance is in some instances ( like a street shot lit by sodium lights ). Sharpening is something that should be applied differently depending on your print size to get the right effect. Color, saturation and tone curves are all very personal choices and how much a change you think is valid is a personal choice, even an artistic one ( if you'll excuse some pretensions )..

That said I'd reiterate that exposure is something to learn to nail when you shoot. This is one reason why I like exposure bracketing and why Nikon omitting it deliberately from their entry level DSLRs is so annoying to me. It seems like short changing people..

StephenG.

Pentax K100DFuji S5200Fuji E900PCLinuxOS..

Comment #27

The Hicock..

Why don't you answer the OP's question instead of starting a boring Nikon Vs Canon argument that has been done to death a thousand times on this forum?jules.

Thehickoks wrote:.

Why canon and not nikon?.

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #28

Sjgcit wrote:.

Midwest Shutterbug wrote:.

I'd recommend RAW, for when exposure or whie balance is off, makesfor a quick and easy fix..

To clarify, Raw gives you greater latitude with white balance, butit's not easier ( or more difficult ) or quicker that with JPEG interms of doing it, just in terms of how much you can do..

That's not been my experience. Really badly wrong white balance in a JPEG is one of the most difficult things to fix, because too much damage has already been done. With RAW, you have complete freedom to change the white balance when processing the image, with no data loss..

Recent tools such as ACR4 have made it possible to use RAW-converter tools on JPEG images, so the process is at least a little easier than it was...

Comment #29

I'll speak as a learning newbie here....

At this stage, I view my post-processing RAW files as part of the feedback that will enable me to take better pictures. Sometimes I know my picture is "off", but not really in what ways. I can play with the various parameters in raw images and see "ah, this help with that...". It's different seeing it than reading it. And seeing it on a monitor in post processing is easier than trying to do all those judgments on the camera LCD..

I think this PP is helping me learn what settings I want to adjust in the camera itself...

Comment #30

What is with people?.

15 days ago I asked a question and it was answered... and then I replied back with a few final thoughts... That was IT!.

The thread went on without a hitch... the "war" or "Nikon Vs Canon argument" was only 3 posts... That's IT! The thread continued to go on... without a "war" and without further discussion about the "Nikon Vs Canon argument"..

Yet now, MORE THEN TWO WEEKS LATER people want to bring up the three post portion of this thread and blow it totally out of proportion....

It is THESE PEOPLE who are resurrecting from the dead a short conversation that was long over...Too Funny!.

JulesJ wrote:.

The Hicock.Why don't you answer the OP's question instead of starting a boringNikon Vs Canon argument that has been done to death a thousand timeson this forum?jules..

Comment #31

I agree with thehickoks, but only this onceLOL.

I wouldn't even think about shooting in RAW for at least a year....

Learn your camera and how to shoot with a DSLR first....

Once you've got that down and your shots look good, then tackle theRAW thing....

IPhoto 08 will get the job done for minor post tweaking....

And pick up the expodisc... that will address the WB issue you mightface when not shooting in RAW....

It makes no sense to shoot in RAW if you have yet to master yourD-SLR....

Frank Perry..

Comment #32

Since you asked, I'll tell you Hitchcocks..

Not everyone reads threads as soon as they are written. There are thousands of threads on this forum and we can't all be au fait with everyone of them..

Strangely enough, when I spot a thread Subject line I open it and read it from the beginning..

Your Nikon Vs Canon drivel that is repeated daily by the low end brain cell count of posters appeared at the beginning of the thread. I responded in an effort to tiform you that your post was not in the interest of the OP, or anyone for that fact..

If you don't like that, then you know only too well what to do in the future. Answer OP's questions and stop the pathetic Nikon/Canon drivel. People pick a camera for their own reasons and are intelligent to make up their own minds. I own both a Canon and Nikon high end DSLR,they are each good for their own reasons. It is sad that people get so stuck into one camp. Usually without even substantially using another make.I hope that answers your rant.Jules.

Thehickoks wrote:.

What is with people?.

15 days ago I asked a question and it was answered... and then Ireplied back with a few final thoughts... That was IT!.

The thread went on without a hitch... the "war" or "Nikon Vs Canonargument" was only 3 posts... That's IT! The thread continued to goon... without a "war" and without further discussion about the "NikonVs Canon argument"..

Yet now, MORE THEN TWO WEEKS LATER people want to bring up the threepost portion of this thread and blow it totally out of proportion....

It is THESE PEOPLE who are resurrecting from the dead a shortconversation that was long over...Too Funny!.

JulesJ wrote:.

The Hicock.Why don't you answer the OP's question instead of starting a boringNikon Vs Canon argument that has been done to death a thousand timeson this forum?jules.

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #33

LOL....

15 days ago I asked a question... it was answered....

But can't let it go can you... still have to inject your unneeded opinion more then two weeks later....

LOL.....

Comment #34

Keep prodding (isn't it called flaming) hiscocks. I already explained why I posted two weeks after your original banality, I guess you cant read too well. But I have no more to say, I said it all.I'll try to avoid your inane remarks in futureBye, forever hopefully.Jules.

Thehickoks wrote:.

LOL....

15 days ago I asked a question... it was answered....

But can't let it go can you... still have to inject your unneededopinion more then two weeks later....

LOL....

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #35

Jules is right. You are childish and immature. I read you original post the same day you wrote it and thought about making the same comment that Jules did. Somehow, I think that if I had, your reaction would have been the same. IOW, your "15-days-later" gripe is just a red herring..

Thehickoks wrote:.

LOL....

15 days ago I asked a question... it was answered....

But can't let it go can you... still have to inject your unneededopinion more then two weeks later....

LOL....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'..

Comment #36

Chuxter wrote:.

Jules is right. You are childish and immature..

Have you been talking to my wife?.

I read you original post the same day you wrote it and thought about making the >same comment that Jules did..

But you didn't... and the three post portion of this thread was put to rest....

Your "15-days-later" gripe is just a red herring..

My question was asked and answered more then two weeks ago... There was no need to resurrect it.....

Comment #37

I have to disagree with this poster yet again. Hopefully I am I time as he has introdoced 'time restraints' on reply posts that I did not know existed..

There is always good reason to shoot RAW and I'll tell you why. Most non professionals who buy a reasonable DSLR can take good shots some of the time. With Auto and P settings and auto focus on cameras nowadays it is easy to take a techically correct photo. Beginers all have some skill and they also sometimes have luck and shoot a great 'keeper', a shot that they love and are proud of. It is possible though, that this shot has some under or over, or both, exposed parts to it..

We shoot professionaly in the studio 100% of the time and this still occasionally happens, it's innevitable, just like a great footballer sometimes misses that goal. If you have shot RAW as well as jpg you will probably be able to save that shot. With only the jpg you will not..

If however your shots are fine you can delete the RAW files after you have downloaded them to you computer and checked them. So no storage is wasted. With 8 and16GB cards now available there is no problem storing them on the camera either..

Hence the advice...."> It makes no sense to shoot in RAW if you have yet to master your D-SLR...", is BAD advice.Jules.

Thehickoks wrote:.

I wouldn't even think about shooting in RAW for at least a year....

Learn your camera and how to shoot with a DSLR first....

Once you've got that down and your shots look good, then tackle theRAW thing....

IPhoto 08 will get the job done for minor post tweaking....

And pick up the expodisc... that will address the WB issue you mightface when not shooting in RAW....

It makes no sense to shoot in RAW if you have yet to master yourD-SLR....

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #38

This makes sense. The computer is now our darkroom and we need it just as much as we did then.Jules.

Guidenet wrote:.

I totally disagree when people say you should learn imaging with thecamera before learning post, or that post is manufacturing goodphotos rather than creating them in your camera..

Post processing is your digital darkroom. Since the begining we'vedone post work as part of the image creation. We often spent moretime and money on our darkroom CREATING photographs than we didbehind the camera. We're not Xeroxing what we see. We're creatingwhat we imagine. We're not trying to copy reality.

To make a statement..

That is the diffence between Ansel Adams and a snap-shooter. Not onlydid they spend hours behind the camera, but Adams and other greatphotographers spent hours and hours in the darkroom bringing out whatthey wanted. That's why their prints changed dramatically over theyears, printing the same negative..

So, go ahead and don't be afraid to buy good post processingequipment from the start, and don't be afraid to learn how to processRAW images from day one. That's part of the skill, talent and art ofphotography just as much as making the original negative or digitalcapture..

One of the disadvantages with asking questions on the Web is that youoften get answers from techno-weenies who don't make many goodimages, but do collect good equipment. Especially don't listen to thepeople who suggest that post processing is not part of photography.Step out and learn it all. More importantly, have fun learning it all..

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #39

You've made the right decision and one day you will upgrade to PS. It's what most professionals use and there is a reason for that. It is better than the other programmes. But Elements is a great programme.Jules.

Niharb wrote:.

Thank you all for your input, I'm sorry I haven't had time to replybut I've been moving and my internet time was limited..

I think now I'll get PS elements (I recall using it in high school,so hopefully it will be familiar territory) for my Mac, andexperiment with RAW but mainly use JPEG. From what I see on B&H,there is only a version for PowerPC. Now I'm updating quite soon toa MacBook, will it still work on an Intel based Mac? 'Cause I don'twant to have to buy another program. Or I can not get any programnow, and use what comes with the camera until I get the MacBook andget Aperture 2 with it. Has anyone tried out Aperture 2?.

Thank you again, and sorry for the delay in responding..

Nihar.

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #40

I don't know what you call processing or what you do but I process each of the shots taken in our business for the clients viewing, cropping etc. Then each picture bought is processed as in general retouching (we do portraiture), spots on peoples facel, stray hairs and a hidred other things. I ca take up to 15 minutes on each picture. Occasionally much more time is required..

'Processing' 200 picture in 1-3 hours , about a minute each, wouldn't even give me time to access the image to see what was need to be done. Lol.Jules.

MarkNicholas wrote:.

The answer to your question is as much as you want. I use Lightroomand can initially process around 200 photos in 1-3 hours. If I wantto just create Jpegs that the camera would have given me then thiswill take about 5 minutes in canon's software DPP.The software supplied by Canon is fine to start off with. Later youmay want to try different software.If you don't shoot RAW from day one you will eventually come toregret this once you do finally start shooting RAW.You may find it more comfortable to shoot RAW + Jpeg to start withand see how it goes. Save the RAW files for later (you will be gladyou did).Markhttp://www.pbase.com/derisley.

Why can't you blow bubbles with chewing gum?..

Comment #41

DSHarned wrote:.

There is a new version of Elements (version 6) for the Mac coming outin early April. It requires OS 10.4 or 10.5. If you're still using10.3, as I am on a couple of machines, you'll want to pick upElements-4 while it's still available. Amazon has both..

Elements 6.0 was just released a day or so ago. I think it's $89 normally or $69 with the educational discount but I may be mis-remembering slightly..

Elements has *most* of the stuff you'll need that's in the full Photoshop but not all. Get it, learn to use levels, brightness, shadows/hightlights, cropping, distortion fixes, and sharpening. Spend $30 more on Scott Kelby's Photoshop Elements 6 Book for Digital Photographers, or find an earlier edition at your local library. There are also some nice online tutorials I've seen referenced here, but Elements and a decent book like Kelby's (it's in it's 6th edition now for good reason) will take you pretty far...

Comment #42

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