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Help With Lens Question
Hi!.

I am slowly warming to the idea of purchasing a low-priced (well, as low as I can make it!) budget DSLR. My very FIRST camera in fact. I am a complete beginner. I was recently thinking of getting a digital compact camera but several reviews and dozens of comments later and I am now contemplating getting a DSLR. I want to get a great brand that is still going to be VERY low priced as far as cameras go. I initially wanted to keep my price under 500 dollars but I am willing to go to possibly 600 or so.

I am wondering what the best, and CHEAPEST lens would be that would be compatible with the Xti. Also, I am curious if there even ARE any low price lenses available with image stabilsation? I think image stabilsation is pretty important, at least judging from reviews I have read from people who have bought these cameras. I would LOVE and appreciate all comments about DSLRS and finding a great and low priced lens that will keep me relatively close to my budget. Any comments? Please help!..

Comments (35)

I forgot to mention that the XTi isn't the SET camera that I am going to get. It just seems like a good deal for aroudn 400 for the body only and 10 megapixels. A lot of people have recommended the Nikon D40 to me but the 6 megapixels is VERY VERY VERY unappealing to me, even though most people mention that there is not a big difference in image quality. I just dont feel like throwing out the money for a camera that has almost less than half of the megapixels that most cameras are coming out with these days..

One important aspect to me though is a self cleaning anti-dust feature. I dont know how clean I will keep the lens but I wo uld honestly feel more comfortable with a camera that does have some form of anti-dust aid...

Comment #1

For the amount of money you want to spend and the features you listed, perhaps the 6MP Pentax K100D w/18-55 kit lens with in-body stabilization (around $500 US new) is the camera you should be looking at..

6MP.10MP.doesn't matter in a DSLR.I wouldn't make that my primary concern..

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #2

Hi!I am slowly warming to the idea of purchasing a low-priced (well, aslow as I can make it!) budget DSLR. My very FIRST camera in fact. Iam a complete beginner. I was recently thinking of getting a digitalcompact camera but several reviews and dozens of comments later and Iam now contemplating getting a DSLR..

Hi....

Do you know why you want a DSLR instead of a compact? They have a much steeper learning curve which includes learning how to post-process images in a program like photoshop to get the best out of them. If you want to.

(a) get into the mechanics of things like ISO, depth of field, apertures, predictive autofocus, fill-in flash etc; be prepared to use an image editor to make the most of the pictures; carry the weight of a DSLR and possibly additional lenses, external flash, filters etc and learn how to use them; take a lot of trouble and really get stuck into photography... get a DSLR. It's a great hobby..

(b) have something to carry with you that will deliver good pictures relatively easily and painlessly... get a compact.

Compacts can produce excellent images: have a look at this post....

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=26915414.

... as you will quickly appreciate from looking at the pictures, the skill of the photographer is more important than the type of camera..

I want to get a great brand thatis still going to be VERY low priced as far as cameras go..

The best value at the moment: Pentax K100D; Nikon D40; Olympus E510; Canon Rebel XT or XTi. All excellent cameras wth a lot of happy users..

Initially wanted to keep my price under 500 dollars but I am willingto go to possibly 600 or so. I was thinking of buying the Canon XTibody only and purchase a seperate lens to replace the original onethat would come with the model. I am wondering what the best, andCHEAPEST lens would be that would be compatible with the Xti..

The best and the cheapest are mutually incompatible: you get what you pay for. the cheapest option is the 18-55 'kit' lens that comes with the camera which wil cost something like an additional $60 over the body only. If you want to get thebody only and a separate lens (like the SIgma 17-70, Tamron 17-50, Canon 17-85) it will cost a few hundred $. A top-quality standard zoom lens (like a Canon L-series lens) will cost more than the camera body..

To start with, if you want a Canon DSLR, get the 18-55 kit lens..

Also, Iam curious if there even ARE any low price lenses available withimage stabilsation? I think image stabilsation is pretty important,at least judging from reviews I have read from people who have boughtthese cameras..

If you want IS in the lens (like Canon and Nikon do it), it costs extra as it makes the lens more complicated internally. if you want this feature, consider a Pentax K100D or the Olympus E510 or Sony alpha-100 which all have IS buiit into the camera body, so that it works with *any* lens that fits the camera and you deon;t need to pay extra for every lens you get..

I forgot to mention that the XTi isn't the SET camera that I am going to get. It >just seems like a good deal for aroudn 400 for the body only and 10 megapixels. >A lot of people have recommended the Nikon D40 to me but the 6 megapixels is >VERY VERY VERY unappealing to me, even though most people mention that >there is not a big difference in image quality. I just dont feel like throwing out >the money for a camera that has almost less than half of the megapixels that >most cameras are coming out with these days..

Why is 6MP 'very very very' unappealing? Until a couple of years ago it was the professional standard, and produces a resolution easily good enough to make sharp A3-sized (about 17 x 11 inches) prints. How big were you planning to print your pictures? Small (6 x 4 inch) prints only need about 2.1MP to be printed at 300 pixels per inch, which is a higher resolution than the human eye can see even squinting at the picture close up. I know someone who upgraded from a Rebel XT to an XTi (to go from 8MP to 10MP, which, obviously is 'better') when he only looks at his pictures on a computer monitor (about 1MP resolution at most)..

There are advantages to having 6MP instead of 10MP: the performance of the camera in low light (indoors without flash) tends to be better, and the files are smaller and quicker to process. Many people now (on this forum) are bemoaning the fact that cameras are routinely produced with pointlessly large numbers of megapixels simply to fool customers into thinking they are getting something 'more' for their money, whereas in fact it makes no significant improvement in image quality. In fact some 6MP Fuji compacts (especially the F31d) are changing hands second-hand for as much as they cost new, because they produce better quality images than their 12MP replacement..

The NIkon D40 you were recommended (6MP) is excellent, as is the Pentax k100d (which has the inbuilt image stabilisation you want)..

I would LOVE and appreciate all comments about DSLRSand finding a great and low priced lens that will keep me relativelyclose to my budget. Any comments? Please help!.

Best wishesMike..

Comment #3

RyanPK1981 wrote:.

Hi!I am slowly warming to the idea of purchasing a low-priced (well, aslow as I can make it!) budget DSLR. My very FIRST camera in fact. Iam a complete beginner. I was recently thinking of getting a digitalcompact camera but several reviews and dozens of comments later and Iam now contemplating getting a DSLR..

Congratulations!.

I want to get a great brand thatis still going to be VERY low priced as far as cameras go..

Will you use the camera or just display it around? You can buy just the brand logo, you know!.

Iinitially wanted to keep my price under 500 dollars but I am willingto go to possibly 600 or so..

I haven't researched that market recently, but I guess that you have quite a lot of options..

I was thinking of buying the Canon XTibody only and purchase a seperate lens to replace the original onethat would come with the model..

A so-so ideea... Why don't you like the kit lens? Too expensive or too low quality?.

I am wondering what the best, andCHEAPEST lens would be that would be compatible with the Xti..

Dude, I do hate marketing. It's like asking what's the best and cheapest car. Let me give you some good advice:.

Either buy a kit, or research quite a lot what you need. Since you are a total beginner, you don't know what you need (and that shows in your question). I'd reccomend going for the kit. It will probably add only about 50-100$ to the cost and that's quite a small sum you'll pay for "education"..

The cheapest lenses you don't want to touch, let alone put on the camera. Total waste of money. The best, depending on what you want to shoot (you do notice you haven't said a word about that!) will put you back a few thousands to a few tens of thousand dollars..

Now, if you don't want to pay half to full camera price for the lens, the kit is a very decent compromise..

Also, Iam curious if there even ARE any low price lenses available withimage stabilsation?.

I see the 18-55 kit lens is available with IS at about 180$. I don't know how much it is IN a kit. Probably the next stabilised lens begin at about 400$..

Another option would be getting a stabilised body. As far as I am concerned it's not as effective as lens stabilisation, but all your lens will become stabilised..

I think image stabilsation is pretty important,at least judging from reviews I have read from people who have boughtthese cameras..

It is quite nice, indeed. However, there are some interesting questions: do you need it? And are you willing to pay for it?.

I would LOVE and appreciate all comments about DSLRSand finding a great and low priced lens that will keep me relativelyclose to my budget. Any comments? Please help!.

First comment: you get what you pay for. All lenses (and bodies!) are compromises. In the Canon line, the kit is ok, and so is the 50mm f1.8. Both are limited in some ways... but would you pay for, say, 16-35 2.8 or 50mm f1.0? Both over a thousand, AFAIK, and both with a different set of compromises....

So, learn what you need and see how important it is to you. An advice I use to offer to dslr beginners is getting at least one fast prime lens. That's the 50mm f1.8 for you..

/d/n..

Comment #4

Ryan, you are VERY confused!.

RyanPK1981 wrote:.

I forgot to mention that the XTi isn't the SET camera that I am goingto get. It just seems like a good deal for aroudn 400 for the bodyonly and 10 megapixels. A lot of people have recommended the NikonD40 to me but the 6 megapixels is VERY VERY VERY unappealing to me,even though most people mention that there is not a big difference inimage quality. I just dont feel like throwing out the money for acamera that has almost less than half of the megapixels that mostcameras are coming out with these days..

Here are the first two "rules" for buying a camera:.

1. Buy the biggest piece of Silicon you can afford.2. Buy the FEWEST number of pixels you can put up with..

You seem to believe (like a LOT of people) that more pixels = better. That is NOT true. In fact the optimum image quality is at some moderate # of pixels. It depends on the SIZE of the photosites. With a small sensor as you'l find in P&S cameras, the optimum is usually less than half what they advertise...probably about 3-4 MP. In a dSLR with a 1.5 crop factor sensor (like the D40, K100D, A100, etc) the optimum is about 6 MP.

Duh....

Oh, the rest of the rules are:.

3. Buy a camera that fits your hands.4. Buy a camera that is intuitive (ie, don't have to read the manual).5. Read the @#$%ing manual anyway!.

6. Find new friends who like you for something other than the brand of camera you use..

One important aspect to me though is a self cleaning anti-dustfeature. I dont know how clean I will keep the lens but I wo uldhonestly feel more comfortable with a camera that does have some formof anti-dust aid..

Honestly, self cleaning is greatly overrated. Basically, it doesn't work. It's just a marketing feature. Regardless of which brand of dSLR you buy, you WILL have to clean the sensor. It's not hard if you find good advice..

Besides, a little dirt never hurt anybody. For most pix, you can't see the dirt...you have to do special things to detect it..

If you really don't like the idea of needing to clean the sensor, then get a camera with a fixed lens!.

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #5

Having more than 6 megapixels and not printing large is like having more cupholders in a car than there are passanger seats..

Image stabilization is more useful on long lenses than anything you'd get to start with. Kit lens 18-55mm is all you really need to start and it's just about the cheapest thing that is worth using..

Anti-dust is 90% marketing hogwash. A $10 blower will serve you much better, don't forget the more moving parts the more places for failure to occur..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window..

Comment #6

I hate to hoot the Olympus horn around here..

But, the Oly dust buster does indeed really really work!.

Too bad for the Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax owners as those manufacturers can't seem to make theirs more effective..

Perhaps someday..

As for some of the other advice here.if it is just a personal opinion, please don't make it sound like it is a fact!.

And, the OP has said that he is a beginner seeking advice, so thumbing noses doesn't answer his questions..

Give him a break.and lighten up!.

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #7

Thanks for your mature response. I appreciate it! I am very appreciate for everyones help. I AM still in complete confusion as to what to get. Especially after going to the store and handling the cameras. They all felt wonderful and comfortable. I guess it just comes down to what is packed with the best features that is going to be super easy to use right from the box.

It seems like it might be the best bet with it's VR lens and anti-dust features. ..

Comment #8

Chuxter wrote:.

Ryan, you are VERY confused!.

RyanPK1981 wrote:.

I forgot to mention that the XTi isn't the SET camera that I am goingto get. It just seems like a good deal for aroudn 400 for the bodyonly and 10 megapixels. A lot of people have recommended the NikonD40 to me but the 6 megapixels is VERY VERY VERY unappealing to me,even though most people mention that there is not a big difference inimage quality. I just dont feel like throwing out the money for acamera that has almost less than half of the megapixels that mostcameras are coming out with these days..

Here are the first two "rules" for buying a camera:.

1. Buy the biggest piece of Silicon you can afford.2. Buy the FEWEST number of pixels you can put up with..

Wrong, technology improves over time, and a 5MP camera from 5 years ago isn't going to outperform a 10MP camera (same sensor size) of the current era. Very misleading, and not completely true..

Regarding (1), you're assuming ISO performance is the number one feature every photographer should look for. This couldn't be more wrong..

You seem to believe (like a LOT of people) that more pixels = better.That is NOT true. In fact the optimum image quality is at somemoderate # of pixels. It depends on the SIZE of the photosites. Witha small sensor as you'l find in P&S cameras, the optimum is usuallyless than half what they advertise...probably about 3-4 MP. In a dSLRwith a 1.5 crop factor sensor (like the D40, K100D, A100, etc) theoptimum is about 6 MP. Anything above that is WORSE, not better.Duh....

Nope, if you're going to make this argument, you better be sure to qualify it..

Oh, the rest of the rules are:.

3. Buy a camera that fits your hands.4. Buy a camera that is intuitive (ie, don't have to read the manual).5. Read the @#$%ing manual anyway!6. Find new friends who like you for something other than the brandof camera you use..

One important aspect to me though is a self cleaning anti-dustfeature. I dont know how clean I will keep the lens but I wo uldhonestly feel more comfortable with a camera that does have some formof anti-dust aid..

Honestly, self cleaning is greatly overrated. Basically, it doesn'twork. It's just a marketing feature. Regardless of which brand ofdSLR you buy, you WILL have to clean the sensor. It's not hard if youfind good advice..

None of the above response is remotely true, unless you don't include Olympus in the DSLR lineup. Oly dust busting works - the proof is in the years of use of the E-1. My E-1 is perhaps 4 years old and shows one small dust spec in the upper right at f/22 and in clear blue skies. It's been through more adverse weather conditions than most Americans. Countless others have used theirs for years and have had no dust issues as well. Again, if you're going to make a blanket reply, you must qualify it..

Besides, a little dirt never hurt anybody. For most pix, you can'tsee the dirt...you have to do special things to detect it..

Right, there's no need to shoot at f/22 or smaller except in specialized situations - and for those specialized situations you should be using a specialized camera..

If you really don't like the idea of needing to clean the sensor,then get a camera with a fixed lens!.

Disagree, again, obviously..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/.

Tim'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma GandhiE3/E1/7-14/12-60/50-200/C8080http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/..

Comment #9

Also, I am curious if there even ARE any low price lenses available withimage stabilsation?.

Canon and Nikon have some zoom lenses with IS (Canon's term) or VR (Nikon's term) in the $250-or-under range. I believe each vendor offers an 18-55mm lens, and a medium-range (55-200mm or 55-250mm) telephoto. (There may also be non-IS/VR versions of these lenses on the market, as well as much-more-expensive constant f/2.8 lenses.).

For $500-$600, there are 70-300mm telephoto zooms with IS/VR. The Canon 17-85mm IS zoom is in this price range. I'm not sure about the price of the similar lens that Nikon is bringing out (has brought out?) to compete with it..

Beyond these, you're pretty much talking $900 to $1200 or more for a lens that has built-in image stabilization..

On camera bodies that have built-in IS, virtually all lenses will be stabilized but you won't see the stabilization in the viewfinder when you are trying to compose the picture. Also,if you plan to expand your lens collection, check that the monetary "savings" of in-body stabilization is for real. If you pay once for in-body stabilization, but the vendor charges you more for each UNstabilized telephoto lens than Canon/Nikon would have charged for the corresponding IS/VR telephoto lens, have you really saved anything?..

Comment #10

RyanPK1981 wrote:.

I guess it just comes down to what is packed with the best featuresthat is going to be super easy to use right from the box..

They'll all be "super easy to use right from the box", when you put them into full "A"utomatic mode (or into "P"rogram mode), and use them like point and shoots. The main difference from point-and-shoots is that you'll compose via a viewfinder..

Differences that would affect your preference of one camera body over another will emerge over time, as you use other modes that give you more control, and as you gain more experience taking pictures. That's when you'll start noticing things like:.

+ Number of focusing points / ease of changing the focusing point.

+ Ease of changing exposure controls (without always going into menus).

+ How comfortable the camera grip and viewfinder are for you..

Comment #11

Timskis6 wrote:.

Chuxter wrote:.

Here are the first two "rules" for buying a camera:.

1. Buy the biggest piece of Silicon you can afford.2. Buy the FEWEST number of pixels you can put up with..

Wrong, technology improves over time, and a 5MP camera from 5 yearsago isn't going to outperform a 10MP camera (same sensor size) of thecurrent era. Very misleading, and not completely true..

Tim, if I have to completely qualify EVERY generalization, I'd have to write a book. Besides, YOU brought in the idea that cameras improve with time...which is also not completely true. I was speaking about new cameras, although I didn't make that clear. Hey, these are just "bullet points"....

Regarding (1), you're assuming ISO performance is the number onefeature every photographer should look for. This couldn't be morewrong..

I was assuming that low noise and high dynamic range were features appreciated by everyone..

You seem to believe (like a LOT of people) that more pixels = better.That is NOT true. In fact the optimum image quality is at somemoderate # of pixels. It depends on the SIZE of the photosites. Witha small sensor as you'l find in P&S cameras, the optimum is usuallyless than half what they advertise...probably about 3-4 MP. In a dSLRwith a 1.5 crop factor sensor (like the D40, K100D, A100, etc) theoptimum is about 6 MP. Anything above that is WORSE, not better.Duh....

Nope, if you're going to make this argument, you better be sure toqualify it..

Hey, Tim, I wrote more words about my simple opinion that "more pixels does not equal higher IQ" than you did objecting to it. Why don't you qualify your point?.

Oh, the rest of the rules are:.

3. Buy a camera that fits your hands.4. Buy a camera that is intuitive (ie, don't have to read the manual).5. Read the @#$%ing manual anyway!6. Find new friends who like you for something other than the brandof camera you use..

One important aspect to me though is a self cleaning anti-dustfeature. I dont know how clean I will keep the lens but I wo uldhonestly feel more comfortable with a camera that does have some formof anti-dust aid..

Honestly, self cleaning is greatly overrated. Basically, it doesn'twork. It's just a marketing feature. Regardless of which brand ofdSLR you buy, you WILL have to clean the sensor. It's not hard if youfind good advice..

None of the above response is remotely true, unless you don't includeOlympus in the DSLR lineup. Oly dust busting works - the proof is inthe years of use of the E-1. My E-1 is perhaps 4 years old and showsone small dust spec in the upper right at f/22 and in clear blueskies. It's been through more adverse weather conditions than mostAmericans. Countless others have used theirs for years and have hadno dust issues as well. Again, if you're going to make a blanketreply, you must qualify it..

Your story about your one dust spot proves my case. None of these dust shakers completely solves the dist problem. You still have to either ignore the spot, PS it out, or clean it off..

Besides, a little dirt never hurt anybody. For most pix, you can'tsee the dirt...you have to do special things to detect it..

Right, there's no need to shoot at f/22 or smaller except inspecialized situations - and for those specialized situations youshould be using a specialized camera..

If you really don't like the idea of needing to clean the sensor,then get a camera with a fixed lens!.

Disagree, again, obviously..

I can't imagine why. It's essentially impossible to clean the sensor of a fixed-lens camera, thus you don't need to worry about it..

Again, these were "bullet points" and generalizations for beginners. To reiterate my main point, high-pixel-count cameras (compared to moderate-pixel-count cameras with equivalent size sensors...and of the same generation) DON'T produce better pictures..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #12

Chuxter wrote:.

I can't imagine why. It's essentially impossible to clean the sensorof a fixed-lens camera, thus you don't need to worry about it..

Not sure about not having to worry about it..

My Fuji S602z (bridge camera - sealed, non-interchangable lens) has a dust spot on the sensor.no way to clean it without sending it in for a $260 overhaul (already checked the repair cost)..

That is half the cost of a new camera!.

Basically this spot makes this camera useless in most shooting situations..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

(See that black spot at the left of the subjects head).

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #13

Olympus's dust system is the 10% that isn't marketing... at least from what I've read it's the only system that actually removes dust acceptably..

$10 rocket blower works too...

Comment #14

I was looking at a Panasonic FZ-50, and came to the realization that the Pentax K100d super was only a fraction more expensive. I was really concerned about noise issues with the 10mega pixel Panasonic, so I opted for the 6 megapixel Pentax(better sensor). Everything I read about the K100 was good, and the K10 was better. (Now with the K20 and K200 coming out who knows.) I like that Pentax will let you use old lenses. So, if on a budget, it's a good camera with an opportunity to use older 2nd hand K mount lenses. That's an option... I know it's not a Canon or a Nikon...

Comment #15

Chuxter,.

You said:- "In a dSLR with a 1.5 crop factor sensor (like the D40, K100D, A100, etc) the optimum is about 6 MP. Anything above that is WORSE, not better. Duh...".

Does that mean the image quality of our D300's with 12.3 MP isn't as good as it could be and they'd have been better using a 6 MP sensor on it - I'm getting worried!!.

Regards......Caster.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window..

Comment #16

MusicDoctorDJ wrote:.

Chuxter wrote:.

I can't imagine why. It's essentially impossible to clean the sensorof a fixed-lens camera, thus you don't need to worry about it..

Not sure about not having to worry about it..

You should only worry about things you have some control over..

My Fuji S602z (bridge camera - sealed, non-interchangable lens) has adust spot on the sensor.no way to clean it without sending itin for a $260 overhaul (already checked the repair cost)..

That is half the cost of a new camera!.

Basically this spot makes this camera useless in most shootingsituations..

At least it's in a "good" spot (ie, not in the center)..

OK, it's got one spot. Tim's Oly has one spot and it has an "effective" dust removal mechanism. Why is the Oly better than your Fuji?.

Besides, your camera is 6 years old. That's well past the expected life for a DC!.

Again, my point is that it's impossible to automatically remove ALL spots from a sensor. It doesn't help to remove all but one dust spot from a sensor! This reminds me of the story about the guy who proclaims that he has quit smoking...5 times...and doesn't understand why everyone rolls their eyes and giggles. Tim's account is similar...he can prove that the Oly dust shaker works...he only has ONE dust spot...so there! .

With a dSLR, it's easy to clean them off. With a fixed-lens camera they normally don't happen until late in it's life, when it's value is below the cost of cleaning..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #17

Caster the Dog wrote:.

Chuxter,.

You said:- "In a dSLR with a 1.5 crop factor sensor (like the D40,K100D, A100, etc) the optimum is about 6 MP. Anything above that isWORSE, not better. Duh...".

Does that mean the image quality of our D300's with 12.3 MP isn't asgood as it could be and they'd have been better using a 6 MP sensoron it - I'm getting worried!!.

Once again, if you have already bought the D300, then don't worry about it. I absolutely think that the 12.3 MP was too high...the IQ would definately have been better with fewer pixels. But to get the rest of the camera, we had to accept the 12.3 MP. I use NR even at ISO 200! Until we educate the consumer and convince the marketeers that we are all educated and DON'T want more pixels, then we will have to suffer. I was very pleased to see that Nikon didn't cripple the D3 with tiny photosites like the ones on the D300...if they had, the D3 would NOT have had better low-light IQ than the D300!.

Just so everyone know, I like the D300. But I would have liked it more with 8-10 MP....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #18

RyanPK1981 - Don't get caught up in the image.

That is my advise for you. I know other people have said it, Don't get caught up with a brand name or image. I know professional photographers look so cool with the great looking cameras, awesome lens, etc..

But my warning is this If you get a DSRL, you will be disappointed that you can't make the camera take professional looking pictures. With cameras of that type, it is necessary to manipulating exposure, f-stops, etc. to make a picture look great. It is not an easy task. You said you were a beginner, so I assume you haven't mastered the art of that yet. Shooting in AUTO does not make great pictures.

If it were me, I would be disappointed that my photographs were not looking like they do in the magazines. It wouldn't take long before the camera was sitting on the floor of the closet or sold on eBay..

I don't want to tell you what to do, but... If this is your first camera, get a bridge camera. They have adequate MP if that is your concern. The most important feature of these camera is that they provide you with an opportunity to learn about how to take pictures..

With my bridge camera, bad pictures were my fault because I didn't compose something correctlynot because the camera had a lot of features that I didn't understand..

As a beginner, the important thing is that you fall in love with photography and taking pictures. Buy what you can handle now. As you learn about photography and what you like to shoot, you will also learn what features you want in your next camera..

And getting back to the image thing, always shoot with a lens hood. Not only does it reduce glare, but many people will think your camera is bigger than it actually is..

Sorry for the mini-rant. I would just hate for you to get discouraged with this hobby because you bought the wrong camera.Sarah.

Http://sjo.smugmug.com/..

Comment #19

None of the above response is remotely true, unless you don't includeOlympus in the DSLR lineup. Oly dust busting works - the proof is inthe years of use of the E-1. My E-1 is perhaps 4 years old and showsone small dust spec in the upper right at f/22 and in clear blueskies. It's been through more adverse weather conditions than mostAmericans. Countless others have used theirs for years and have hadno dust issues as well. Again, if you're going to make a blanketreply, you must qualify it..

Your story about your one dust spot proves my case. None of thesedust shakers completely solves the dist problem. You still have toeither ignore the spot, PS it out, or clean it off..

Chuxter, I believe we both can agree that no digital system is perfect, there is always room for improvement in some way or another. Where we disagree is whether or not Oly's dust busting solution "works" or "doesn't work.".

If by "it doesn't work" you mean that it is not 100% perfect then of course you are correct. By "it works" I mean that Oly's dust busting system is near-perfect and is leaps and bounds better than any other manufacturer's to date..

I don't know of any other manufacturer that produces DSLRs which can survive 2-3 years of use in adverse conditions (broadly defined) with normal lense changes and keep a sensor as clean as Olympus does. I believe one dust spot (one) after 2-3 years of use is exceptional. My singular dust spot is no where as big as the dust spot presented in the thread below, and is ONLY visible at f/22 apertures at high contrast. It has never and never will show up in any of my photographs..

It is unfair to broadly lump all dust busting solutions into the "doesn't work" category when Olympus rightly deserves to be praised for a system that has worked for a half decade, which no other manufacturer has been able to match..

Tim'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma GandhiE3/E1/7-14/12-60/50-200/C8080http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/..

Comment #20

Timskis6 wrote:.

None of the above response is remotely true, unless you don't includeOlympus in the DSLR lineup. Oly dust busting works - the proof is inthe years of use of the E-1. My E-1 is perhaps 4 years old and showsone small dust spec in the upper right at f/22 and in clear blueskies. It's been through more adverse weather conditions than mostAmericans. Countless others have used theirs for years and have hadno dust issues as well. Again, if you're going to make a blanketreply, you must qualify it..

Your story about your one dust spot proves my case. None of thesedust shakers completely solves the dist problem. You still have toeither ignore the spot, PS it out, or clean it off..

Chuxter, I believe we both can agree that no digital system isperfect, there is always room for improvement in some way or another.Where we disagree is whether or not Oly's dust busting solution"works" or "doesn't work.".

Well, I knew when I made the generalization, that it would be bait for Oly owners. I AM NOT TRYING TO BAIT YOU AND OTHER OLY OWNERS!!!.

My point was/is that even if you have an OLY, dust WILL get on your sensor. You will either have to ignore it (your approach) or remove it (my approach). I don't object to you ignoring it, since it isn't really a big problem. But with that understanding (ie, that dust is not as big a problem as some people make it), any dust shaker can remove some/most of the dust...to the point that non-AR people can ignore it. Heck, unless they go looking for it, most people don't know it's there!.

If by "it doesn't work" you mean that it is not 100% perfect then ofcourse you are correct..

Yes, that is what I mean..

By "it works" I mean that Oly's dust bustingsystem is near-perfect and is leaps and bounds better than any othermanufacturer's to date..

I too have seen the test results. This issue has been discussed A LOT and there is no agreement about how to test dust shakers objectively. The biggest issue is that it's tough to quantify exactly what kind of dust to use, how to present it to the camera, how to dilute it appropriately, etc. SOme people contend that the worst "dust" are certain varieties of pollen, which can be damp and glue to the AA filter. But what kind of pollen? Does it have to be fresh (damp) or can it be dessicated and preserved pollen? So far, I have not seen a good dust shaker test..

If certain pollen is the biggest problem, then your environment can greatly influence the success rate of your shaker. If you don't live in an area where the "bad" pollen grains are abundant, any system might work well..

Your anecdotal experience is totally subjective..

I don't know of any other manufacturer that produces DSLRs which cansurvive 2-3 years of use in adverse conditions (broadly defined) withnormal lense changes and keep a sensor as clean as Olympus does. Ibelieve one dust spot (one) after 2-3 years of use is exceptional.My singular dust spot is no where as big as the dust spot presentedin the thread below, and is ONLY visible at f/22 apertures at highcontrast. It has never and never will show up in any of myphotographs..

It is unfair to broadly lump all dust busting solutions into the"doesn't work" category when Olympus rightly deserves to be praisedfor a system that has worked for a half decade, which no othermanufacturer has been able to match..

I am an Oly fan. I think they are one of the most innovative camera manufacturers. They remind me a bit of Sony and the Betamax format. Yes, it's better, but it isn't selling for some reason. It's tough for proud companies to abandon great ideas...even when it might destroy the company. Sony was big enough to survive..

But I can't stand Oly owners. They have a chip on their shoulder. They are insecure and hyper-sensitive. They get insulted easily. Heck, they are worse than Canon owners. .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #21

Chuxter wrote:.

I am an Oly fan. I think they are one of the most innovative cameramanufacturers. They remind me a bit of Sony and the Betamax format..

Yes, it's better, but it isn't selling for some reason. It's toughfor proud companies to abandon great ideas...even when it mightdestroy the company. Sony was big enough to survive..

They (Olympus DSLR's) are selling.you just aren't on the front lines to see it happening..

But I can't stand Oly owners. They have a chip on their shoulder.They are insecure and hyper-sensitive. They get insulted easily..

Heck, they are worse than Canon owners. .

Wow.and here I thought you were one of the nice guys around here..

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #22

I just purchased a Nikon D40 at Cametta Camera for $498, camera, 18-55mm VR (vibration reduction) lense, 2gb high speed card, and a hoya filter. Great camera, great deal, especially with a VR lense..

Sure hope I was allowed to post this info, Good luck with your choice!..

Comment #23

Sarah,.

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. I am honestly not worried about getting caught up in having a "cool" camera or looking a specific way with a Dslr. That's definetly not my intention in any way. I was originally intending to get a bridge camera (more specifically the panasonic lumix fz50 or the canon s5 is) before until Many, many comments and forum posters on this site and another one began swaying me towards a dslr by telling me I will definetly take better low light images with a dslr..

I will probably mainly be taking indoor images and I do NOT want to deal with a ton of noise. At the same time, I have no clue about camera mechanics and technical aspects, so I AM in the dark on most of the issues people on this board are talking about..

I am just trying to make a GOOD decision with the money I have been putting aside for this camera. Honestly, right now, I am living from paycheck to paycheck, so this camera is going to be a luxury for me and I dont want to throw 500-600 dollars away on something that is going to dissapoint me...on the other hand, I do understand that it's all about ME and how I use it and how much effort I put into learning to use the camera and it's settings..

Anyways, I thank you for your comments...my search for the perfect camera continues!!!!! ahhhhhhh!!!..

Comment #24

BA baracus wrote:.

Olympus's dust system is the 10% that isn't marketing... at leastfrom what I've read it's the only system that actually removes dustacceptably..

$10 rocket blower works too..

Sure a rocket blower can dislodge loose dust specks on your image sensor, but they can just as easily settle on the sensor again. Simple and cheap solution, but can be greatly improved by combining sensor vibration cleaning systems with other manual cleaning as needed..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #25

MusicDoctorDJ wrote:.

Chuxter wrote:.

I am an Oly fan. I think they are one of the most innovative cameramanufacturers. They remind me a bit of Sony and the Betamax format..

Yes, it's better, but it isn't selling for some reason. It's toughfor proud companies to abandon great ideas...even when it mightdestroy the company. Sony was big enough to survive..

They (Olympus DSLR's) are selling.you just aren't on the frontlines to see it happening..

I assume the "front lines" are in Colorado? .

That may be a poor analogy...it implies that there is only one place where Oly has chosen to sell their cameras. It also implies that Oly is in real competition with other Japanese camera manufacturers. The truth is that ALL the camera manufacturers in Japan are members of Japan, Inc. They do things TOGETHER, for the greater good..

But I can't stand Oly owners. They have a chip on their shoulder.They are insecure and hyper-sensitive. They get insulted easily..

Heck, they are worse than Canon owners. .

Wow.and here I thought you were one of the nice guys aroundhere..

I am one of the nice guys. It was a tough joke. You Oly owners ARE hyper-sensitive and attack like bees when something disturbs your ego..

But I see this behaviour in all the forums! We, unfortunately, are a clannish animal. It's just not pretty to watch... .

I often recommend to new camera buyers that they spend some time lurking in the dpr forum for the cameras on their short list. I suggest that they may find some brands to have overly virulent customers. Unfortunately, when you buy into a camera brand, you "join" the clan. While it may be a cruel, cold judgement, I'm being honest when I say that I would not buy a Canon or Olympus camera because of the personalities and behaviour of the owners. I can just barely stand the Nikon guys!.

Recently, when I bought the D300, I started hanging out on the Dn00 forum...a lot. It's been VERY informative. I've learned a lot! But there is a sizeable percentage of members there that are terrible! As one example, about 6-weeks ago, several threads were started about a strange problem: At very long exposure times and with the camera set a specific way (involving Auto-ISO), the result had hundreds of colored and segmented vertical bands. It was difficult to determine WHAT settings caused this. While a few of us were trying to solve the mystery, others were attacking us, saying that "real" photographers didn't use the settings (like very long exposures) that seemed to cause this. They denied that THEIR D300 did it.



Well, the end result is that it was a firmware problem, easily fixed, and Nikon introduced Rev 1.2 to cure it. The nay-sayers are quiet now, but they WILL jump up again when they feel that somebody is "attacking" Nikon. So, it's not JUST Oly and Canon, but they are quicker to take exception with nice guys like me. .

Bottom Line: If you don't like being grouped with the Oly clan and described as being virulent, then you should:.

1. Admit that the accusation is accurate.2. Change..

Or you could change brands? .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #26

Chuxter wrote:.

MusicDoctorDJ wrote:.

They (Olympus DSLR's) are selling.you just aren't on the frontlines to see it happening..

Chuxter wrote:I assume the "front lines" are in Colorado? .

You know what they say about 'assuming'..

Being a former photojournalist.rule #1 was to never assume anything, and I always keep that in mind..

I'm not talking about just Colorado.I'm talking about camera and box stores in general!.

They are selling Olympus..

Sure, more Canon and Nikon are selling, but Olympus is selling just as good, if not better, than Sony or Pentax has been in the last year..

Last week, for example, I sold six Nikon, four Canon, two Olympus, and zero Sony or Pentax DSLR's..

The Pentax or Sony DSLR's didn't sell due to a lack of trying on my part..

(before anyone accuses me, the Sony and Pentax actually pay BETTER than the other brands).

And both who purchased the Oly's came in looking at Canon or Nikon, then asked for other alternatives..

So I got out the Pentax, Sony and Olympus DSLR's..

Both of them said, "Oooooohhh!" when they picked up the E-510..

They liked the fit of the camera in their hands..

One of them came in on Saturday to make some prints and made a point to come over to thank me for showing them the E-510 as they hadn't even considered it until I showed it to them and that they loved it!.

Of course, with four new DSLR's coming from Sony before the end of the year (three of them in the next couple of months), this may change things for all the DSLR makers, not just Oly..

Now, for those sitting behind a keyboard on a chatboard it is easy to proclaim that one camera system is better than the other and to say that one is selling better than the other..

But to actually be in the stores selling them and seeing what is selling is a whole different ballgame..

One other note..

I also get to see a lot of the unhappy DSLR owners who listened to anonymous faces on internet chatboards, bought what they were told (or led to believe) was 'the best', and now are unhappy and stuck with their purchase (typically because they bought it from an online vendor that doesn't have much of a return policy)..

Everyday I see these people..

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #27

Hi,.

You just reminded me that you are a complete beginner and this is your first camera, and money isn't that easy to come by; I guess?.

Dare I suggest that whatever camera you buy you will be thinking of changing it soon and for a variety of reasons that you cannot imagine now? One of them being that cameras change things for you and then you go down other avenues. So just one camera for a long time isn't really going to work..

My experience of these things is that people often end up with two cameras. One is a serious camera (your dSLR with the non-kit lens or two or three lenses) and the other is a point and shoot (P&S) that they take everywhere with them..

Dare I suggest that you take a long term view and go for the P&S first? For a start your budget for a dSLR will have to include a lot of oddments that cost money; things like filters, a lens hood for when you drop on and tread on it, spare batteries, extra media cards, a card reader and a bit of software and so on (and a bag to carry it in and it will weigh a ton btw)..

But plan for a good P&S and the same sort of kit and you'll find yourself far better off (mainly because a case, perhaps, is all the kit you'll need). The basic P&S outfit is a lot cheaper than a (very) basic dSLR kit and nowhere near as frustrating. Nor will you need so much software because (dare I mention it?) most P&S's are more intelligent than their owners..

And you'll have cash left over for a printer (excellent investment) and won't have to worry about mega-pixels because, well, this is only the first step. You'll even be able to buy a couple of books about photography and, if you read them, will be years ahead of a lot of people on the forum..

Using a P&S is fun. Getting the best out of it isn't half or even a quarter as hard as getting the best out of a dSLR and most serious photographers will tell you that they take more pictures on their P&S and with a lot less effort. They'll also tell you that the camera is nowhere near as important as the photographer and most will tell you that they've had P&S pictures published without anyone noticing it wasn't the latest gee whizz toy. Just ask my wife who had a picture from a 3 megapixel P&S published in a calendar this year, because she saw the picture in front of her and took out the P&S and that was that. It wouldn't have happened otherwise....

Then when you know a little more about what you are doing and what you want to do, buy a dSLR and keep the P&S as it's companion..

Hope this is some use to you..

Regards, David.

PS Panasonic and Leica between them turn out some superb P&S's; so do Olympus and Olympus kit lenses are head and shoulders above the rest. I keep one glued to one of my dSLR's and it's got me pages of pictures published: can't say more than that...

Comment #28

MusicDoctorDJ wrote:.

Chuxter wrote:.

MusicDoctorDJ wrote:.

They (Olympus DSLR's) are selling.you just aren't on the frontlines to see it happening..

Chuxter wrote:I assume the "front lines" are in Colorado? .

You know what they say about 'assuming'..

Yes. I forgot you were a camera salesman. Duh! But it was a joke. Don't Oly owners have a sense of humor?.

Lest you reply that I don't seem to have a sense of humor either, just look and notice that my "joke" had a winky face...yours had nothing..

Being a former photojournalist.rule #1 was to never assumeanything, and I always keep that in mind..

I'm not talking about just Colorado.I'm talking about cameraand box stores in general!.

Yes, I finaly got that....

They are selling Olympus..

Sure, more Canon and Nikon are selling, but Olympus is selling justas good, if not better, than Sony or Pentax has been in the last year..

Last week, for example, I sold six Nikon, four Canon, two Olympus,and zero Sony or Pentax DSLR's..

That is anecdotal. Do you understand that what happens in your "front line" is a very small part of the big picture. I don't work in a camera store, but I read sales statistics..

The Pentax or Sony DSLR's didn't sell due to a lack of trying on mypart.(before anyone accuses me, the Sony and Pentax actually pay BETTERthan the other brands).

Tell that story to a psychiatrist and they will immediately know that YOU sold the camera...the camera didn't sell itself. YOU are an OLY fan (nothing wrong with that), but you are simply not neutral. You obviously have a bias and your success selling various brands is slanted toward what you are enthusiastic about..

And both who purchased the Oly's came in looking at Canon or Nikon,then asked for other alternatives..

And you sold them what YOU like. Nothing wrong with that...except if you try to tell us that you are neutral and the camera sold itself..

So I got out the Pentax, Sony and Olympus DSLR's..

Both of them said, "Oooooohhh!" when they picked up the E-510..

They liked the fit of the camera in their hands..

One of them came in on Saturday to make some prints and made a pointto come over to thank me for showing them the E-510 as they hadn'teven considered it until I showed it to them and that they loved it!.

Of course, with four new DSLR's coming from Sony before the end ofthe year (three of them in the next couple of months), this maychange things for all the DSLR makers, not just Oly..

Now, for those sitting behind a keyboard on a chatboard it is easy toproclaim that one camera system is better than the other and to saythat one is selling better than the other..

Yes, it actually is, because global/national sales statistics are relatively easy to find. It's discussed often over on the News Discussion Forum. You should lurk there and see what is happening outside of your store..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #29

Sorry.a rant following:.

Chuxter wrote:.

The Pentax or Sony DSLR's didn't sell due to a lack of trying on mypart.(before anyone accuses me, the Sony and Pentax actually pay BETTERthan the other brands).

Tell that story to a psychiatrist and they will immediately know thatYOU sold the camera...the camera didn't sell itself. YOU are an OLYfan (nothing wrong with that), but you are simply not neutral. Youobviously have a bias and your success selling various brands isslanted toward what you are enthusiastic about..

Don't even pretend you know me or even think you know the way I sell..

I am not bias toward any camera when I am behind the counter.well, except maybe Kodak P&S cameras (:-}).

As proof (well, I'm not going to post the sales reciepts).I sold three Rebel XTi's last week.I hate that camera and would never ever buy one (although, if someone gave me one, I'd probably use it)!.

But I don't tell my customers that!.

I know it is a good camera.I just don't like it myself!.

And both who purchased the Oly's came in looking at Canon or Nikon,then asked for other alternatives..

And you sold them what YOU like. Nothing wrong with that...except ifyou try to tell us that you are neutral and the camera sold itself..

Again.don't even pretend to try and think you know me or the way I treat my customers..

I have lots of repeat customers who will come in and wait for me when I'm busy because I don't give them the same BS that you guys all accuse camera salespeople of schlepping..

And I'm not an Olympus fanboy.I just happen to be a camera salesperson who owns one Olympus digital camera (DSLR).and two Panasonic digitals.and two Fuji digitals..

All of my 35mm film cameras are Canon.none of my digitals are..

I'd say that spreads me around the camera chain a little bit (ie.- open minded about the different camera makers).not stuck on one brand (like so many on these forums)..

Yes, it actually is, because global/national sales statistics arerelatively easy to find. It's discussed often over on the NewsDiscussion Forum. You should lurk there and see what is happeningoutside of your store..

Pretty funny stuff.but even funnier is this:.

I do think it is funny when people around here tout all kinds of so-called knowledge about an industry that they don't even belong to or even have the slightest idea of that industry, other than whipping out their credit card and purchasing something from that industry..

If you want to find out about the real world of camera sales, perhaps you should join that work force instead of pretending you know all about it!.

But, that is all moot, really..

And, why are we arguing about all of this in the first place?.

I forgot.and really don't want to continue!.

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #30

Thanks David!.

You are very helpful and It was very nice of you to respond with such sincerity and courtesy..

Sounds like a good idea. The Panasonic Lumix fz50 has been on my wish list on amazon.com for some time now. It looks to be a great starter P&S for a beginner like myself, yet somewhat technical enough to get myself learning a little at the same time with the manual features..

I should also mention that, oddly enough, I work at a photography studio (SEEMS STRANGE HUH? Especially since I know so little about cameras!) and I was actually trained on Adobe Lightroom for my job editing photos..

I actually have lightroom on my PC at home and was planning on editing and tweaking my images with this program. I am a huge fan of Lightroom and I know the capabilities it has for pumping out beautiful shots with all it's features..

So, with that said, hopefully with a great P&S, matched with the lightroom software I will be able to produce some quality shots..

As of now, I am still torn a little bit between investing my money that I have now in a p&s or a dslr...but I am sure I will make up my mind soon enough! .

Thanks again for your help!!! ..

Comment #31

RyanPK1981 wrote:.

The Panasonic Lumix fz50 has been on my wishlist on amazon.com for some time now. It looks to be a great starterP&S for a beginner like myself, yet somewhat technical enough to getmyself learning a little at the same time with the manual features..

The FZ50 is a great camera to get started with and grow with..

Once you get your hands on one you'll quickly realize that it isn't a point and shoot camera..

There are lots of FZ50 owners that dumped their DSLR to go to the FZ50!.

And you'll be amazed at the prints out of one..

I find that I have more fun taking photos with my FZ50 that when using a DSLR..

Using the DSLR reminds me of 'working'..

The FZ50 is so close to using a DSLR in operation, feel and features, but without all of the hassles of a bag full of stuff, not to mention not having to change out lenses everytime you turn around!.

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

From my FZ50:.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #32

MusicDoctorDJ wrote:.

Sorry.a rant following:.

But, that is all moot, really..

I agree..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #33

Thanks for the pic! What a beautiful shot! Yeah, the ease of use and amounts of manual capabilities on the fz50 are very enticing to me..

I pretty much have it narrowed down to getting either the fz50, the nikon d60 and the olympus evolt 510..

Which one I definetly get is still up in the air! They all seem to be great cameras. The d60 seems like a good choice as a beginner dslr, at least to me since it comes with a stabilized VR lens. image stabilisation is pretty important to me since I have a shaky hand naturally, so I like that it comes with that built right in. Not to mention the anti dust feature. same goes for the olympus model..

OY VEY! So many options!!! ..

Comment #34

Part of the reason that I chise the E-510 was so that I could use the same flash accessories with the FZ50..

They both use the same TTL flash system..

J. D.Colorful Colorado.

From E-510:.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Remember.always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!..

Comment #35

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