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Dont deal with ZeroHill aka Travis Hill.

On the 19-02-2009 I made contact with a user called Zerohill..

I pmed him, about a site he had for sale. He told me that he had sold the site,.

And I enquired if he had any other sites similar to that one.

He replied Yes, and we started discussing a site which I later bought on.

Hostgagor.com, which is a typo of hostgator.com, relies on an affiliate program paying.

75 USD per sale.  The more sales you give them, the higher up the money trail you go.

He showed me several screen shots of the domain, with in the hostgator affiliate panel,.

We agreed a sale and I paid him for the domain and site.

- After several days I noticed the domain had traffic and all the referrals were unknown..

- I contacted Zerohill, and went through a process of changing settings( recommended by him).

- I waited a few more days and the stats were still showing as unknown..

- Several more changes of htaccess and the index.php and the referrals were still unknown..

- So then he he said it must be my hosting causing problems..

- I moved the domain to a different server, on a different bandwidth provider..

- Waited some more days and to my surprise it was still showing as unknown..

- I then spoke to him on msn, he made me change more settings.

- He refused to provide me with his hostgator ID.

I have emailed hostgator, they had said they are unable to trace any sales with the domain name hostgagor and would need the users hostgator affiliate ID.

Around the 06-03-2009 I contacted Zerohill and demanded a refund..

He ignored my additional messages, and I eventually pmed him asking him to come to namepros chat. He decined and told me to come to IM.

After no real results I contacted Peter @ namepros, and spoke to him, if he could speak to Zerohill, and help me get to the bottom of this.

He agreed to help, and couple of days later me and Zerohill agreed to try once again to make matters work.

After more changing settings, which at this point didnt work again (surprising), I pmed him again, only to be ignored  once again, and then again and then on the 3rd PM, and 2nd email.

Zerohill pmed me and said  I quote.

I forwarded our entire correspondence, including, but not limited to:.

* Your complaint.

* Files regarding complaint.

* All correspondence.

* All dates and times.

* Message Logs.

* Contracts.

* Purchase Orders.

* Emails and PM's.

* Documentation relating to complaint.

* Financial Statements.

* Receipts.

To my attorney on 3/17/2009.

Also NP's staff is obviously aware of our issue. I have happily provided them the same information.

I will also be more than happy to make available and public all of this information..

So in this long lengthy post I will attempt to answer his last message.

- My complaint.

1  All stats showing up as UNKNOWN referrals..

2  NO sales in one entire month, even though you were making 4+ a month..

3 - Hostgator unable to confirm if you orginal screen shots were legitimate, or if they were photo shoped.

4- you will not provide any usernames for the hostgator affilate program.

- Files regarding complaint.

1  I dont think you have any.

- All correspondence and dates and times, message logs.

1  I have a copy of them here as well.

- Contracts.

1  you never laid a contract out on POS..

2  After I contacted you on MSN, did you give me the gobbley gook, of no refunds etc. This is after you sold me the domain. To enforce any contract, it must be visible in writing before you do the sale..

3  You forced your agreement on me, when I clearly pointed out I wanted a refund.

- Financial Statements and Receipts..

1  I have asked for this information, and you have refused this..

2  I have asked for the host gator ID and you refused to give me this.

Underlying fact,.

As I said before in all my PMs to you, I am not out to give anyone a bad name, nor do I intend to get scammed out of 2024USD of my hard earned money and not kick up a fuss.

I have gave you more then enough time, and been more then reasonable to respond to my issues. I have sat back and watched the days roll by with you pointing the finger at me, or the hosting.

Quoting further from you last PM,.

I will also be more than happy to make available and public all of this information..

Since you are unable to provide any information to me, so I can trace the domain, and verify the stats.

Lets do this in this in public view since you are unable to deal with my complaint.

Ibby.

(PS  if any administrator/moderator needs the emails / PMS of hostgator forwarding to them, you can contact me.).

This has gone to far Travis, I want a refund please...

Comments (88)

Well, lets give Zerohill 24 hours to respond.

Then we'll see what action needs to be taken...

Comment #1

Rules are important: http://www.namepros.com/showthread.p...03#post3363503.

And shouldn't this be posted, or moved here?.

Anyways, While it is true that you did make contact with me, you never inquired about a site "similiar to the one" I previously sold.

Let me refresh your memory:.

Timeline of Events:.

Ibby - blue.

ZeRohiLL - black.

Peter - red This is the original sale via PM.

The "site" as ibby puts it, is only a one page lander with a graphic: A small .php file handling the link: And a .htaccess amendment for the link: Any changes made were only suggestions, I never "made" you do anything. The way I remember it, you wanted me to let you log in to my account, where my Social Security number is waiting for you? A contract doesn't have to be written, as most contracts are not. In our original agreement, I gave NO GUARANTEES of TRAFFIC OR REVENUE, and PROMISED THE DELIVERY of the DOMAIN NAME and FILES RUNNING THE LANDING PAGE.

I have not forced anything upon you, as you clearly agreed to purchase the domain name and files running the lander with no guarantees of traffic or revenue, and I delivered my part of the agreement. If Peter would have seen an issue, I would think that I would have been canned.

I've also had this tested successfully by friends and colleagues. The whole thing is right up there, so anyone is free to test it. I welcome all to give it a try.

Finally,.

I've worked my ass off to get to where I am today, and I wouldn't dare attempt to put my Name, Reputation, Business, iTrader, Money, or the TIME I've dedicated on the line.

Ibby, I'm not mad at you, but I cannot justify a refund. You agreed to purchase the domain name and files, with no guarantee of traffic or revenue. After that my end of the deal is done. You have stated the domain gets traffic.

I have numerous "traffic" or "revenue" domain names that I too have bought from a number of people from different forums (including NP's) over the past year. I can think of a handful that don't do 10% of what the previous owner "claimed" that it made.

Who's to blame?.

The economy? Maybe.

My TQ Score vs. their TQ Score? Maybe.

Different Platforms? Possible.

Did I feel burned? Hell Yes.

Did I suspect fraud? On Occasion.

I learned my lesson. I don't buy from certain people, and I only accept verified payments.

Not to make light of the situation, but what is the worst that can happen here? You've already spammed my iTrader with two negative feedbacks, and I guess if our peers here at NP's see it fit, I may get my FREE ACCOUNT closed. It wouldn't be the end of the world (although I do love this forum and feel I'm getting shafted), and once you learn (like I have) that there is much more lucrative business away from domainers and the forums, you will begin to realize everyone elses mistakes...

Comment #2

I've moved the thread here as requested.

I'll get Peter to provide his inputs if he can.

Were you advertising this or are there any reasons you can figure out why you were getting sales while he isn't?..

Comment #3

Ok on the 8th of March ibby contacted me as the sale had gone sour. I PM's ZeroHill as per the PM's above. Once these PM's were sent ibby stated that my PM's prompted the communication to start again and it was requested by ibby that I step back to see how things go.

Re the sale. Although you did not make any guarantee of the traffic or the revenue that the domain generates you did sell and price the domain according to this. If that traffic is not found to be correct then the domain sale is fraudulent.

A couple of things I would urge you to double check on:-.

1) Has Hostgagor been confirmed as an affiliate of Hostgator.

2) Has Hostgator suggested why the traffic has not been authenticated.

3) Is your affiliate ID cmia24..

Comment #4

You told me this was a platform issue, I sawapped servers to another dedicated server on a diffrent stream. I admit the domain gets traffic, but all unknown? - apart from the ones I physically clicked on to see if the refferal was logged.

The last time I bought something that had unknown traffic from these forums, eventually turned out to be a bot located on a server, refreshing the page.

I peronally think the traffic is fake, Not even ONE conversion on refferals? I have also lost out. I have sat down and reasoned with your personal circumstances. I even apologised for being hasty. I waited for an reslove to this issue and not a fob. I only left the negatives to get your eyes open to how serious the problem was. you can just fob me off with a pm saying my "attorny knows all about this".

Thats like saying "yes I have took his money, scammed it, but you or namepros cant do anything about this.

Through out this entire problem, you seem to point the finger at me and say.

1- it is your hosting problem.

2- it is you.

3- you have modified or broken the files.

However.

1 - I have swaped hosting twice.

2 - Its not me.

3 - I have just modified the affilate id on the script.

I provided with all your information,.

- Cpanel userame and password.

- password to my hostgator affilate program http://ibby.co.uk/hostgagor%20issue/feb.JPG http://ibby.co.uk/hostgagor%20issue/march.JPG http://ibby.co.uk/hostgagor%20issue/referals.JPG http://ibby.co.uk/hostgagor%20issue/.

MSN logs are attached I Pm'ed Peter, becuase I was not getting a response from Zerohill, but once Peter pm'ed him, he replied pretty much straight away.

I only bought this domain, and paid a premium for this domain, becuase of the revenue.

1 - He has not provided me with his affilate ID.

2 - The only thing they mentioned on an email, unknown refferals are unknown. (cant be traced).

3 - My affilate id is cmia24.

From MSN logs.

Screen shot msn6 http://ibby.co.uk/hostgagor%20issue/msn6.JPG.

Date 09032009.

Time from 21:59 to 22:30.

We made the agreement till the 12th March, they were all your TERMS..

I just agreed to them even thou I was unhappy. even though, I went through your agreement and nothing has been resloved you fail to refund my monies.

I assumed after the 12th of march, if this had not been resloved I would get a refund ....

Instead of a refund you passed the matter to your lawyer...

Comment #5

Are you talking about no referral on the site itself? This is a typo domain, so pretty much no referral data should be expected. Webmasters linking aren't going to make this typo. It comes through type-in traffic, which has no referring website.

If you are talking about no referral in HostGator stats, this could be attributed to the PHP redirect.

I'm not a hostgator affiliate so I don't know how they handle reporting. Some programs count first page and others join page in an attempt to make traffic performance seem much better than it actually is. Either way, these numbers are very unusual and they do display the classic footprint of carding.

Dec.

5 hits 5 uniques 4 sales.

Jan.

12 hits 11 uniques 10 sales.

Feb.

11 hits 10 uniques 10 sales.

You really need HostGator to get involved more than what they are. Something tells me they are avoiding you for some reason...

Comment #6

This could easily be resolved if Zerohill would allow hostgator to check the stats for his affiliate ID.

Perhaps then they could confirm if 1. He received that many sales & 2. that they were legitimate and hostgator paid out for them...

Comment #7

Zerohill, I think it's in your best interest to come clean and provide the requisite info to ibby.

Please provide the affiliate ID to Peter via pm in case you dont want to make it public.

Or you could issue a refund to ibby and avoid all the problems this is going to cause in the long run...

Comment #8

This deal seems so confusing to figure out. This is why I never buy or sell domains based on traffic or revenue.

Brad..

Comment #9

Opinion:.

So we have a meeting of the minds. Absent any fraud it's a good deal. If ZH can offer up hard proof that the statistics provided were true and did not make a material misrepresentation, this matter would be effectively resolved...

Comment #10

Not being able to guarantee future revenue is fine, although if he cannot prove the previous revenue then ZeroHill is at fault.

If he can prove the revenue is correct, then I would say it's just bad luck on ibby's side.

The reluctance of ZeroHill to give details that could clear his name does not look good though...

Comment #11

Simple'ish matter: I offer you domain for [agreed price] without any guarantee of revenue or traffic. I accept. Sold as seen, caveat emptor. I see no relevance in showing stats or historical data for, as the seller stated prior to the agreed sale, that none was guaranteed.

Only sticking point is this statement: Because a complaint hasn't yet been received does not a bonafide representation of goods make.

However, because the buyer knew both of the purpose of the domain, plus the revenue stream being closely linked to the Hostgator typo and hostgator affiliate program, Im not learned enough to state whether or not (if a complaint is subsequently received) this constitutes a misrepresentation of the goods on offer.

Is it a surprise to anyone that a cool scheme which is sold on the basis of 3 - 4 months revenue without any guarantee or residual holdback then suddenly dries up immediately after the sale.. ?

Comment #12

Assuming Zerohill's original traffic and stats were true as reported...caveat emptor will rule the day in this case...

Comment #13

That is because there are no details that could clear his name.

26 uniques.

24 sales.

A typo domain redirect with natural traffic doesn't generate a 1:1.08 ratio. That is IMPOSSIBLE.

This should have been a blinding reg flag to ibby. There is no way he could have pulled this off on a more experienced webmaster...

Comment #14

When someone is very sure about their stats, then they dont usually stop someone to look in their account when the deal is solely based on TRAFFIC/REVENUE. Imo, it is legit to log in to seller account to confirm it is true.

If the seller claims the revenue and traffic and not showing stats, then seller should be held responsible for passing on the wrong information.

So yet, seller need to come up with those revenue exact stats etc.

26 uniques and 24 sales, I think somthin is fishy here , but we live 3d world or possibly more dimensions, so anything is possible, but that is not something that happen quite often.

Hope this get resolved...

Comment #15

Sad situation to say the least. One out of their money and another w/ a sick child. I can empathize; it does appear to be a "cooking the books" classic.

I'm not sure that those saying caveat emptor really appreciate the meaning. There was a dialog between the two. The well ran dry immediately after purchase. There is recourse for the buyer.

Can anyone imagine if you had an Adsense CTR such as this? You'd be banned.

What I'd do is give a certain amount for the domain (it has value) and refund the difference. Make a repayment plan.

Otherwise, confirm previous dialog w/ buyer allowing account access and end this BS. Time to end the stress and deal with it responsibly. Hopefully, ya'll can end this amicably...

Comment #16

Http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx.

This link above deal with interenet Fraud via third parties etc.

@Ibby, you may consider this to get justice...

Comment #17

Yeah right, are you serious? The buyer bought this domain pretty much "as-is". It's the buyer's responsibility to get the traffic IMO. If the type-ins aren't coming maybe he/she has to wait longer. It seems to me as if ibby got impatient with traffic and revenue with this deal...

Comment #18

I was offering a suggestion to the cause of your problem. It was process of elimination, since the files work fine for me, and everyone I know that has tested it. You have Google Analytics installed on this domain as I'm typing this, let us know what it says about your traffic. I was simply getting a legal opinion about the matter. From a legal standpoint, I've gone above and beyond my original obligation. I provided you every statistic you wanted in a very prompt manner.

Quite the opposite, I gave you time away from my business, work, and family to help you out. I gave you personal details about my child, and my wife!.

Quite the footprints of a scammer.

I have the same screen name/avatar on all of the popular domaining forums.

Quite the footprints of a scammer. I've provided everything from Google Analytics for the traffic to PayPal Payments for the revenue. Account access is simply out of the question. I wouldn't give out access to my Social Security number. I may as well give out my PayPal details. Now that this has been brought to the light of HostGator, I'm sure their wheels are working.

I willingly helped him out numerous times before his accusations started. Once the accusations started, I had no obligation to continue helping him.

I once thought this to be a viable solution to the issue as well, but must recant that thought. If/since this has been brought to the light of HostGator, I may lose the revenue generated from those sales, and the domain may as well be handed over to them. I'm not going to "buy" the script or site back, I've got a copy, and it's been made public.

I cannot be held responsible for someone else's purchasing habits. I cannot be held responsible for someone else's clicking habits. After ibby asked, I clearly stated that I could not guarantee the future, because anything after it is out of my possession is simply out of my control...

Comment #19

I must be missing something here. It seems the main thing wrong is that the redirected traffic/clicks are showing up as unassigned instead of as the new owner's, so the new owner is not getting revenue for anything. If that's the case, it seems the traffic is there, but the configuration isn't.

Why not give zerohill temporary access to the typo account so that he can set up the script, .htaccess and whatever, so that it works as advertised?..

Comment #20

You have my username and password for both cpanel and hostgator affilate.

Even tho you said "sold as seen" you emphsaised the fact the domain was making XXXX amount a month. You said it would only take this long to make your money back.

It was only now, that I have claimed you scammed me, before that you helped me. Well actually balmed me saying it was a platform issue, or it was a user error when I uploaded or modified the script and I stand firmly that you have taken money from. You used photoshop or other ways of editing the information.

- Thats why.

1 - you still to this date have failed to provide me with your affilate ID.

2 - You still havent given me access to the hostgator affilate panel.

Your excuses comprimise of "its a generic password" iam not going to give it to you or ... "I am not going to change it" is not good enough. Travis, I want my money back. Its very simple. I want a refund. He has the username and passwords.

Hes just using that as an excuse. Their is nothing wrong with the configuration of the script...

Comment #21

IMHO you got F'd ibby. Drag it out Z, contradict yourself, state "I'm not giving out my SS#"...Don't you know that someone who spent $xxxx will get that info w/out resistance?.

How much time do you need to make this right? Don't you see how tolerant others have been and that you are still here? Why is that? Because they're compassionate of your situation...This is what I want to believe the reason to be.

Curse, stomp your feet, say F'it...and take care of this business. Otherwise, I say... <EDIT.

PS...May be gone for awhile (-points)..

Comment #22

Guys why are you siding with ibby?.

Case & Point:.

#1: This domain, like any domain with traffic & revenue, is sold "as-is". I never see any warranties or guarantees with sales like these, and I'm sure this sale didn't have one. IE, ZeroHill didn't guarantee ibby he'd make his money back or $xxx with the domain, let alone a single sale/conversion.

#2: The last quote in the post above this clearly represents stats from 2008! It's three months into 2009! What's the chance of these stats still being consistent?.

#3: Being that the stats are from 2008, ZeroHill also caught this domain as it was expiring! Just because he didn't promote it didn't mean the previous registrant/owner DID NOT. Maybe ZeroHill got lucky and was able to get traffic from the previous registrant's marketing techniques, who knows!? Again it's three months into 2009 people, traffic like this does not always stay consistent especially if the original registrant marketed it somewhere.

So as you can see, ZeroHill is innocent as this case has some reasonable doubt. As with any sale, the domain is sold "as-is" with no guarantee or warranty.

A refund at this point is absurd...

Comment #23

Are you serious?.

Look @ the conversion rate. The dialog confirms a certain implied expectation; but now ZERO...

Comment #24

FALSE, sometimes.

Misrepresenting traffic or income data in connection with a domain means the sale was made in bad faith. Did this domain when forwarded really have a 1:1.08 ratio on natural typein traffic for an extended period of sales? If Zero believes that it did, then he would have no problem giving ibby his affiliate ID.

Another problem with this sale is that ZeroHill told ibby that HostGator didn't have a problem with him using this typo domain. He clearly implied that HostGator gave him the green light to use it.

"HostGator doesn't see a problem with it, I've never received a C&D or UDRP or WIPO.".

Which in this thread after the sale turns into this...

"Now that this has been brought to the light of HostGator, I'm sure their wheels are working... If/since this has been brought to the light of HostGator, I may lose the revenue generated from those sales, and the domain may as well be handed over to them."..

Comment #25

Agreed.

@ EGGS.

This is no gurantee of traffic, but come on, with 26 uniques and and 24 sales, and not showing your stats and revenue etc by loggin in to your account is BAD FAITH SALE.

If I sell you 3k worth domain, and I tell you no gurantee of traffic, thats ok, but dont you get curious from 24 sales, it goes to BIG FAT ZERO????.

Then you demand the stats of the sales by login in to that account if you were told of the traffic/sale was true, which I highly think is made up.

I am preety sure, there are not any such stats, thats why seller is not showing them.

Anyhow, if this was to be clear, seller could have showed his stats and saved his reputation, rather than saying "i dont want to risk my repuration BLAH BLah" but if you really care about reputation then why dont show the stats and come clear.

Wish both of you luck, I hope this get resolved...

Comment #26

Maybe I should have re-worded it. It wasn't like I knocked on their door:.

"Look here, I have a 1 key typo domain of your company, do you mind if I sit on it and make money off of your name?".

That didn't happen...

Comment #27

Seems kinda weird this is still a public thread, but, as I see it ( according to the info in this thread anyway ).

1).

Ibby asked if there was a guarantee.

ZeRohiLL explicitly said there was no guarantee.

Ibby decided to proceed.

How can ZeRohiLL be expected to give a refund under those conditions?.

2).

Ibby contacted hostgator, possibly ensuring that any referrals from the domain were now being blocked by hostgator, and decreasing the value of the domain.

How can ZeRohiLL be expected to take back the domain under those conditions?.

3).

I'm not a member of the hostgator affiliate program, not entirely sure how they do their stats, but the traffic screenshots appear to indicate:.

Jan: 11 Uniques this month, 26 Uniques total.

Feb: 10 Uniques this month, 26 Uniques total.

Feb has 10 uniques, but no increase in total uniques.

Stats which appear to say: 26+10=26, would cause me to abandon any purchase.

Please forgive me if I've misunderstood the hostgator affiliate stats, but otherwise, these stats appear to support ibby's claims that ZeRohiLL intended to deceive, which, if true, would in my opinion, negate points 1 and 2..

Comment #28

Dude forget the domain name, just give him your affiliate ID so that he can verify the sales you have made by directly contacting hostgator. No need to provide any login information, just the affiliate ID, if I am not mistaken, folks at hostgator will be able to verify the sales you've made using your affiliate ID. If they turn out to be what you've claimed in your PMs then there is no further obligation on your part...

Comment #29

In other news, hostgator will take this domain by force and use this thread as the ammunition- not like they need any...

Comment #30

Ah I see. Cumulative total of all time, not cumulative up to the selected month.

Then I think points 1 and 2 stand...

Comment #31

If you can confirm that you had made sales in that past, then you are clean. But if you can not show that, then you are lying imo..

Comment #32

Exactly, there's a reason why he is avoiding posts asking him to give his affiliate ID. It's not like affiliate IDs are anything private, they are usually available to be seen by all in the affiliate link itself. I can't see how it can harm you in any way to give your affiliate ID to ibby, so that he can verify your claims regarding the sales you've made using this domain...

Comment #33

Okay, firstly I'm making an assumption here and I'm not actually stating that he is lying.

But what some people are saying is that you can lie and give false information about a domain/site if you put a get out clause.

So if I sell a site of mine, claiming it makes $1000 per month for last 3 months and then sell for $5000. I then put that traffic/revenue is not guaranteed at the bottom and sold as is.

When the buyer gets the domain, he makes no revenue from it. That's okay??..

Comment #34

No. An "as is" or "not guaranteed" clause is not a get out of jail free card. This case turns on the legitimacy of the original stats. Though Caveat Emptor is presumed, it can be overcome if the original stats were not legit.

What is important about this case from a legal standpoint, is that the burden of proof is on THE BUYER/PLAINTIFF to prove the fraud or misrepresentation.

*Disclaimer* Though I am graduating law school soon, I am not a licensed attorney. This is not meant in any way to be considered legal advice...

Comment #35

ZeRohiLL, you have addressed everything in this thread except for the 1:1.08 ratio over an extended period of sales. Do you care to comment on this?..

Comment #36

Would you let a prospective Buyer log in to any of your accounts? I sure as heck wouldn't...

Comment #37

Did you even read the opening post? He can let the buyer verify the stats he is claiming just by giving him his affiliate ID. No need to give login details...

Comment #38

Did you read my post? I was responding to someone's comment about logging in to the account itself...

Comment #39

Something which cannot be achieved without ZH's co-operation ( affiliate ID ) The one thing that can clear this mess up, save all the suspicion and clear your reputation. Why the reluctance ?

Comment #40

I understand the "buyer beware" argument here, however this sales foundation is based on information that was provided to the buyer. If that information can be verified then end of story as far as I am concerned, if not then it looks like something fishy went on.

Brad..

Comment #41

Ibby, I dont see any point where ZeroHill should refund you, and since you know his first and last name, why not contact HostGator with the link to this thread and his complete name to inquire about the stats..

I dont recommend full or even partial refund on this cuz it was "No Guarantee" sale, so Ibby has to bear the loss. However, There's a lesson for you to learn from this and you very well know the lesson now!!.

Everyone asking for his affiliate id, Let me re-iterate that ZeroHill has no obligation of providing that information if it was not requested prior to the Sale of the said item and it was "as is". Ibby was suppose to confirm the authenticity of those stats prior to paying or buying this item.

Once purchased, tested, and dried out CANT COME HERE AND CRY FOR REFUND IMHO!!.

Let's move on, and let them decide the outcome..

Comment #42

Agreed. It's unfortunate, but more research and verification should have been done, IMO, prior to dropping $2k on a typo/affiliate domain.

That being said, if I had nothing to hide, I would just provide my affiliate ID for verification. If it would save my reputation for future sales, why not?..

Comment #43

Interesting thread will bookmark this to keep track of the outcome as this thread has bearing on future transactions of this nature etc.

My humble opinion on this matter is I have had great transactions with ZH and had no issues whatsoever..I feel he didn't do this in bad faith nor was he trying to trick ibby....I agree with Jay....He shouldn't have to refund the money because the buyer lacked research on this matter.

This is the exact reason I don't buy domains based on past revenue because traffic comes and goes and there is little one can do to change this fact.

Anyway bookmarked thread...

Comment #44

Ok I think he can bear the loss, but when You are buying the domain from me, and I tell you I had made 1000 usd from this domain, but I can not let you log in to your account and sell a domain to you. Totally understantable..

WITH tHAT Being Said, if I sell you a domain and tell you I dont gurannteee for future sales, Totally Valid.

With THAT Being Said, If you you a buyer tomorrow come to me and tell me bro, I am not making a single sale etc, can you please confirm with me those Sales that you had made, Totally Valid, if you not able to provide that then "Totally INVALID" and bad faith sale, and causes you to have bad repuation in the long run!..

Comment #45

Another thread: What's the lesson? What's funny? CRY? Any difference this time?!.

I'd say the lesson for everyone who condones this type of business is do business among yourselves. Everyone else you at least know of some to stay away from. There has not been one rational argument to support this kind of behavior or sale.

There is a case here and I hope it gets backed up w/ some action. This dog's got fleas and needs to be treated...

Comment #46

"cmia24" is the affiliate id in this link.

My opinion:.

Buyer's due diligence should have included obtaining Seller's affiliate id and verified transactions prior to sale. If Seller balks, Buyer walks.

Unless the affiliate id "cmia24" does not belong to the Seller or the transactions that were presented to the Buyer do not match up with transactions verified by Hostgator for affiliate id "cmia24", Buyer has no recourse unless Buyer can prove the transactions were fraudulent since Seller made no guarantee of traffic.

Sucks for both parties, hopefully they will reach an amicable solution...

Comment #47

Let me introduce you to misrepresentation.

From Wikipedia : The false statement of fact here is the stats regarding sale claimed by ZeroHill.

During the sale. As far as I can see, ZeroHill has made no effort to prove that the stats are right...

Comment #48

Great post.. I am 100% agreed with this...

I too agree that Once something is sold... it is gone..

If ibby wants stat... he should have asked for it prior to sale.. he should have verified the stats with hostgator.. he should have asked for the affiliate iDS.. Its like buying a apple, eating little from a side.. and asking for refund..saying it's not tasty...

The buyer himself should be cautious enough prior to sale....

Comment #49

This is buyer's affiliate id. Please read my reply to www.DONT.net's post. The buyer is not asking for refund on the basis of the fact that domain is not making money. He's asking for refund bacuse the seller made a false statement during the sale. A valid contract cannot be based on a false statement of fact...

Comment #50

I can't believe all those people taking sides with ZH. Ok let's assume for a second that buyer made a mistake and didn't verify the sales by asking affiliate ID. So what? If ZH is truthful he will give him his affiliate ID right away and end the matter right there and then. What's so hard about this? Is buyer asking for his Paypal user/password or bank account info!?.

I don't know what exactly is the problem giving affiliate ID now if he is telling the truth!??? Can you give me just one reason!?? Stop with the excuses!..

Comment #51

I agree this could easily be resolved.

Buyer Beware as always, but at the same time a contract can't be based on fraudulent info.

ZH could easily clear this up. If the stats were legit, then end of story.

If not, there there is a serious problem.

Brad..

Comment #52

The amateurs have one way of doing business (your playground style rules), but professionals like to stick with actual legal facts. It seems as though each side is butting heads in this thread, and it is quite obvious who is who.

It is not a consumer's legal responsibility to confirm the authenticity of sales claims as you state. While it certainly makes sense to do so where possible - and ibby should have verified things with HostGator for his own protection - the seller's claims play a big role in the legitimacy of any sale be it domain names or a loaf of bread.

Yes, it was sold "as-is". However "as-is" includes not only future domain performance but also the accuracy of all claims made in conjunction with the sale, which are presumed to be truthful and accurate. This is a concept that a few people in this thread seem to have a real problem grasping.

Someone can offer for sale what they state to be a race horse that won the Kentucky Derby. Even if they sell the horse "as-is" and say they can't guarantee future wins, if it is discovered after the sale that the horse hasn't really won anything then there is a real problem for the seller.

Just as there is a real problem for Zero if those 24 sales didn't happen or HostGator actually does have a problem with the use of this domain. If either one is untrue, then Zero is guilty of false advertising and the entire sale falls to pieces...

Comment #53

So in other words you are saying that ZH actually did fraud and now he can't prove those sales simply by giving affiliate ID?..

Comment #54

Well..... Did the sign say Red Delicious and then when I bit into it found out it was actually a McIntosh? If so, you owe me a refund...

Comment #55

Exactly.. How can you say the seller made a false statement.

A buyer himself should be responsible for verifying all data if it's legit or not...

Checking stats, Verifying accuracy, Checking if it's legit or not are all need to be done before buying.. Once bought... it's gone.. the buyer must forget everything..

But if ZH is legimiate and doing true business here, he should not sit quiet without providing his affiliate ids...

I am out.... PS: I am no way affiliated with any of the parties(ZH or ibby)...

Comment #56

Who knows who these people really are. There is an unexplained phenomena at every single online business board where a segment of the posters talk really big when in reality they are amateurs, wannabies and perpetual newbies.

Not to sound negative against places I spend time reading and posting at, but I have noticed a way above average number of such posters on domainer forums. I know why it is, but this thread isn't the place for that discussion.

I'll just say that no matter what the opinion is or how convincing someone sounds, it's always best to use the forums as a basic guide and then educate yourself on the matter...

Comment #57

What is it man? Is this your out?.

Apparently there are plenty in here seeing no problem selling "lemons". This is part of why people look down on this business.

Apparently can't spell it out for the delusional. They all must have similar sales. Time to weed the yard imho...

Comment #58

Because seller is not letting anyone verify his statements. Due diligence is not a legal obligation. It does not overrule misrepresentation of facts. There is plenty of evidence in court cases, look around you'll find some. Here's an example,..

Comment #59

I still stand. I think ZeroHill is innocent, and what is posted above as well. The buyer can't "taste" domains that he bought from a user....if he doesn't like the results he's getting he should try harder. Buyer shouldn't expect a free lunch.

You know how easy this domain would be to get sales? Damn invest in some PPC advertising for the term or something and you'll get commissions. You make an investment to seek a revenue and hopefully that revenue will turn up a profit!..

Comment #60

@ EGS.

I am not into tasting domain traffic,.

He needs to provide me with the affilate id..

Or a refund...

Comment #61

Glad that my comment got quite a bit of attention on this, and I would love to respond to all of you Quoting me left right center.

Users tvdotcoms, amenzl, dman_2007, DubDubDubDot, aliweb or anyone else eagerly awaiting my response; please stick around and I will respond to each of your comments one by one. probably by eod.

Got alot of work to do till then!!..

Comment #62

Don't worry too much about the response, if the precedent set by EGS is anything to go by you'll also post your old post and say I still stand by it...

Comment #63

Just because you have too much FREE time on hand and few of us dont, doesn't mean you can make some lame assumptions like you just did.. oh well you aint proving much with your posts anyway!!.

In a bit, as I stated earlier..

Comment #64

I don't know how hard is it to give affiliate ID to buyer and end this matter right here. sigh!.

EGS conveniently ignored this matter and is talking about trying harder, PPC bla bla which is not the matter at hand...

Comment #65

Haha, you really are a busy man. So kind of you to take time out of your busy schedule to make a personal attack...

Comment #66

I have messaged zerohill once again asking him to give me the affilate ID, or a refund.

I have also set a deadline for 9PM GMT..

Comment #67

I read most of this, what I dont get is how a name can make hundreds one month and then zilch the next. The sale was based on the rev. the domain has made in the past, it's obvious, if you dont see it your either blind or just dumb.

Why would anyone pay 2k for a name with no traffic nor revenue, the sales price itself claims it will make money otherwise the name would be worthless...

Comment #68

Spot on Jay, the kids are running way out of hand in this thread.

This is between ibby and ZeroHill - If you aren't here to help then simply just move along...

Comment #69

ZeroHill was originally asking 3.2K or 10 months earnings for the name. I know I would be willing to provide my affiliate ID to prove the sales were true. Since the sale was based on revenue I would have to side with ibby if the account information is not provided...

Comment #70

I think the ones seeing this as a raw deal for ibby are the ones trying to help and are simply pointing out what appears to be a bad business practice. There are other mods in here. And it is clear that many have offered up solutions to resolve this. For $xxxx buyer should have gotten at least a tunafish sandwich..

Comment #71

Hey everyone, I thought I should chime in here as Ibby has been in contact with me about this issue. I am the Director of the HostGator affiliate program. If a moderator would like to PM me I can confirm that position as well. I thought I should clear up a few things in this thread.

First:.

The (unknown) status really does not matter for tracking, that only means our system could not pick up referrer data. In this case though it does matter because only direct link clicks are referrer tracked, a redirect would lose that data. I can see why this is being made an issue, because if those were direct links then they did not come from hostgagor.com.

Second:.

We do not mind someone registering a domain with a typo, we have been around since 2002 and if we did not think of it first and it's a big money maker then we made a mistake. We do not have the tendency of going around taking peoples domains or banning them from our program just because they use hostgator or a near word in their domain. We are a privately owned company based on internet sales, and I like to think we understand the game much better than a company full of suits and investors.

Third:.

We did not block any of his sales due to typo, redirecting, etc. His tracking is still coming through fine, he just has not made any sales off of the traffic this month.

Now that I cleared that up, if ZeRohiLL would like to privately send me his HostGator affiliate ID I will gladly confirm his stats. We do not have any policy preventing me from releasing his stats if I were to find his account by name or referrals, however I would like to avoid that and have him provide that information to be fair.

Hopefully I can help in clearing up this issue!.

Edit: I did speak with Samit over the phone to verify my identity...

Comment #72

@ JayJays.

Thank you for responding to my matter personally..

I am sure we can clear this up, if zerohill provides information..

Comment #73

He did prove those sales by furnishing screenshots, whatelse do you expect him to do other then sharing his personal information like id's & passwords outta the blue??.

Like dance naked for ya'll on the street just because this guy "Ibby" didnt do his homework properly before purchasing something which was sold "AS IS".. Even though screenshots were displayed but seller still made it very clear that he does not GUARANTEE any of all this because it can never be guaranteed!!.

I have dealt with ZeroHill quite a few times and he's come out clean as whatever you wanna name it. Utmost professional and satisfactory trader, so I cant take ibby's word on him. Can you show any of your post with a rational argument about this issue?.

Everyone's entitled to their viewpoint and that's what we enjoy here at NamePros. That said, why don't you add something rational other then asking ZeroHill to furnish his personal details which he aint obligated to anymore since the sale is over and done with and buyer didn't BOTHER authenticating the particulars of sale prior to making a payment!!.

Did you atleast ask once for Ibby to learn from his mistakes and try other ways to find his affiliate information by contacting HostGator, as I had stated earlier with his complete name et al.. Its now for Ibby to investigate (which he is entitled to) and prove his screenshots FALSE. if he cant do that he cant blame him for Sh*t I reckon.. Dman, where is the misrepresentation in this case proved, or is it even proved by Ibby?? Just coming out and saying that he hasn't made a single sale doesnt prove him right and ZeroHill wrong cuz he didnt guarantee 10 sales or even just 1 for that matter....

Comment #74

EGS/Dont/Etc - the whole problem here is that ibby claims the sale was made based on fraudulent info.

He's not asking for a refund just because the domain is not producing sales, he's asking for a refund because he believes that this domain never did produce any revenues and zerohill is using stats derived from some other marketing method or even fake stats to sell this domain.

I'm not a lawyer, but speaking from my personal viewpoint, any sale based on false info from the seller is fraud.

Though with jayjays here, it should be a matter of time till we confirm whether or not the stats provided by zerohill were correct or not.

Though it is suspicious that hostgator does NOT have any record of any sales via said domain. Once zerohill provides the affiliate ID required, it should be a simple matter for hostgator to check to see how many sales were actually made via this domain. I've just confirmed that jayjays is who he says he is, called the hostgator number on the site and then the extension I was given. Zerohill, please provide your affiliate ID to jayjays via pm or if you prefer email it's jay at hostgator dot com...

Comment #75

Can we call you PRO here with a Joining Date of May 2008 @ NamePros and about only 209 Posts under your belt?.

Since I'm an amateur according to you, can I seek lessons for FORMAL TRAINING to be a pro like you? Atlast some one did make a valid point that if the sale was based on FALSE screenshots and facts, then it is a bad one! But that still has to be proven...

And again when he did not guarantee any thing and buyer didn't bother confirming the authenticity of all the facts earlier, doesn't give him the right to come running at the later stage with one word in his mouth "REFUND!!" He wants refund, okay cool, he should get it provided that he hasput in effort and proved the facts wrong furnished by ZeroHill at the time of conducting this sale/transaction.

As I have said numerous times earlier if there were no terms fixed prior to completing this sale, ZeroHill stands no obligation of providing any information but on the other Ibby can continue his investigations. Samit paji you know I always agree with whatever you say.

My viewpoint here is "if he claims that it was based on false facts, should atleast prove them screenshots wrong for all of us to believe that it was actually done up shots.".

He just cant run around saying, false data, false data without any proof....

Comment #76

First of all in order to be "PRO" it's not about how many posts are under you and when you have joined the forum etc.

Secondly, if he is running around saying false data, he did give "ZEROHILL" a warning, to give him affiliate so he can confirm the sales, since he zerohill was failed to do so, he started a thread and contacted management team.

Why dont you message Pm Zerohill, that he can come and clear up the facts, since now we have "jayjays" here to confirm this for us...

Comment #77

All along this thread me and many others you have quoted have been saying the same thing and you disagreed with us. You really need to take reading comprehension classes. This is the exact reason we have been asking ZeroHill to provide his affiliate ID, which is in no way personal information, to prove the validity of stats. If he has nothing to hide then why isn't he providing his affiliate ID. He might not have legal obligation to provide his affiliate id, but he does have moral obligation. But now that the representative of hostgator has said that he can pull out his stats without his affiliate id in case zerohill doesn't provide one, we'll soon see an end to this case...

Comment #78

Making a post like he did up there makes him a PRO you mean? ZeroHill doesn't need to clear up anything here if jayjays can find out an affiliate account with his name, so what are we waiting for?.

And in the meantime I'd like you to contact IBBY and tell him to learn a lesson from this incident about evaluating & authenticating facts before finalizing a deal! Ever heard of sarcasm? I guess not.. lol.

Are you also going to direct me to get formal training for English like DubDubDubDot did for being a PRO?? Rightly said, but as I said earlier, we should be able to pull up the commission data with the affiliate website url or with his complete name.. so no point asking over & over again...

Comment #79

The statements you've quoted was in reponse to this statement you made in your first post. The assumption that stats were invalid was just for the sake of argument.

Read my first post, which has the same meaning as samit's post above to which you agreed wholeheartedly...

Comment #80

I don't see where jayjays has said that at all. We're all hoping that Zerohill does the right thing and provides the info or a refund, even now.

I don't know about anyone else but my reputation online ( or offline ) is definitely worth more than 2k. Plus hiding behind the net is never an option as many people have found to their discomfort.

And please, lets not start calling each other names, this thread is about a deal gone wrong, lets restrict ourselves to that...

Comment #81

Sarcasm, Yeah right. I guess this is also a sarcastic statement WHERE you make a 180 turn from your previous viewpoint. I think this is implied here, name can taken from whois info. But you're right, it would be much better if zerohill did the right thing.No need to make anything public, just settle it privately and quitely whatever the case may be. This thread may be deleted as well...

Comment #82

Can you read?? I mean carefully?? Read what I said and with a huge emoticon of LOL with it.. do you even know what "WHATEVER" means?? And do you know the meaning of SARCASM?.

I said I agree to WHATEVER he says, in a sarcastic manner and he got my pun intended with the statement I made but of course you didn't.. I also stated my viewpoint with it which I know you cant read well... And it aint no you turn from my earlier viewpoint and I still stand by that. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES & READ!!!.

Bottom line: End of discussion from my side because I don't have hours to waste & go on saying same stuff over n again for few of you so called PRO's who I know will never get it.

ZeroHill I hope you co operate and walk out as free man. Ibby I hope you get what you deserve (refund or no refund) & learn your lessons, be it a hard way. I'm outta this thread...

Comment #83

That is a great way to get your affiliate accounts terminated...

Comment #84

You should be out of this thread, because you are here not trying to help solve the case, but trying to prove you are right.

Its not about you are right or not, this thread is about solving the case, and stop giving tips and if you want you can help solve the case rather than giving a tips. I think Ibby had already learned that.

Mind You, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT "CONFIRMING THE SALES THAT ZEROHILL HAD MADE IN THE PAST" But not giving tips.

I hope you understand and I resepect your professional attitude.

Cheers..

Comment #85

Yes, because join dates and post counts mean everything. Bill Gates has a 1984 reg date and 10 million posts. =) Unless someone was born yesterday, they know his sales ratio is possible for only three scenarios.

Carding: There is no traffic padding to cover things up short term, but many criminals are dumb. Most affiliate programs would have kept an eye on this after December's numbers and then terminated him sometime in January. I'm surprised any affiliate program would let this ratio go on through February (this is assuming the screenshots are real).

Direct sales: This is pretty unusual, but it's where you personally talk someone into the merchant's product online or offline and then give them the link after you've sold them on it. That could account for a 1:1.08 ratio, but I have my doubts on this because using a typo domain would look so unprofessional.

Program mistake: Credited for sales not made. Rare in itself. This doesn't go on for months. This sale was between the US and UK. If the sales facts turn out to be fiction, courts in either country would side with ibby. I guess you are from India? I don't know how they do things there.

Unless Zero is forced to provide the info through court order or being strong armed by the forum, he can just sit back and watch. It is kind of a moot point now though since HostGator is looking into this. Maybe you would also like to comment on a 1:1.08 ratio after 24 sales? If you just do domaining and no affiliate programs then you don't have to respond. Like I say, that figure isn't the smoking gun, but it's the bang everyone heard.... But like you say, he still needs to gather the evidence to force the refund and I agree with you there...

Comment #86

I agree 100% with this statement. I am not sure what went on but the bottom line is Zerohill can clear this up if he provides the relevant info. Now HostGator.com is willing to look into it there really is no excuse not to provide that info.

If the data checks out then the sale was legit. If it does not then the entire basis of the deal is flawed.

I understand due diligence, and buyer beware, but at the same time you can't knowingly misrepresent something.

I am not saying ZH did that in any way. I am just saying he is the only one who can clear this up.

Brad..

Comment #87

Ok, I think the time for discussion is past on this.

We've taken up the matter for review with the team...

Comment #88


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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