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Canon EOS 400D vs Olympus E-510
Hi,.

About to purchase my first digital SLR and I'm quite torn between these two cameras....

The way I see it at the moment is that they both seem like excellent cameras and do consistently well in reviews, both on this site and in various photgraphy magazines..

My main issue with the EOS 400D is the lack of live view. I wear glasses and find it awkward to sometimes use the view finder. I appreciate that auto focus isn't usable in live view mode, but I think it's something that would be incredibly useful for me..

This would appear to put the E-510 in the lead, however I was wondering what people thought about the four thirds sensor. It's certainly physically smaller than the EOS 400D, but it's different technology and seems to get good reviews. In reality, for a first dSLR will I be better off with the live view, or the larger sensor?.

Also, I'm slightly concerned about the availability and price of accessories for Olympus cameras as opposed to Canon cameras... what do people thing about that?.

I'm aware that the EOS 450D is around the corner, but the initial prices are about 170 higher, which is the price of a good lens, case, tripod etc... for either of the other cameras. Also, I'd quite like to just get started!.

Any thoughts?.

Thanks,.

James..

Comments (16)

When you buy a camera, you're buying into a system. Nikon and Canon have the most complete systems by far..

That said, if you don't think you'll ever grow out of an entry level camera and kit lens, it doesn't matter. I'd get the Olympus. The 510 has a wonderful feature set and in-camera vibration reduction..

In the long run and if you decide to expand, the Olympus would not be my choice. The smaller 4/3 sensor is pretty much at the end if it's ability to gain more resolution with less noise. IMO, the argument for 4/3rds mount is no longer compelling. The trend over the years will be to enlarge sensors in order to increase dynamic range and decrease noise. Olympus is locked into that small sensor with it's lenses being matched to it. There are other aspects to the 4/3rd mount that argues for it's future, but I, personally, don't think it's a good enough argument, barring some major scientific breakthrough..

I think Olympus's future will be small high-quality high-tech cameras that don't have to compete with the image quality of pro-level dslrs. Put the IS technology in the E410 and they're on their way, IMHO..

Canon's entry level cameras are wonderful. Their kit lenses are not as good as Olympus or Nikon, but if you choose wisely, you can get a good lens. For example, the new 18-55 IS Canon is a superb performer for the money and would make a good kit lens if you can get it with the 400d. I believe it comes with the 450..

Have fun and good luck...

Comment #1

About to purchase my first digital SLR and I'm quite torn betweenthese two cameras....

First off, don't be torn. It's hard to go wrong with either..

My main issue with the EOS 400D is the lack of live view. I wearglasses and find it awkward to sometimes use the view finder. Iappreciate that auto focus isn't usable in live view mode, but Ithink it's something that would be incredibly useful for me..

With this in mind, I'd seriously consider the E-330 that is available at bargain prices, or the Panasonic DMC-L10. I'm assuming the E-3 is out of your price range consideration. All of these have a movable LCD. This is a HUGE plus when using live view. Both can AF in live view. The DMC-L10 can do contrast detect AF using the Leica lenses but not the Olympus lenses.



If you really intend to use live view a lot, then the movable LCD is a big deal. If not, then the reason to get the E-510 over the 400D is the sensor based IS and a dust reduction system that is well proven. Also, the two lens kit is quite a bargain and covers a lot of focal range. The reason to get the 400D would be that there is a bigger range of lenses available for it from Canon and third parties and that some of the more premium lenses will probably cost less than most similar Olympus premium lenses..

In reality, for a firstdSLR will I be better off with the live view, or the larger sensor?.

The real difference in sensor size isn't really that much of a factor. Far too much is made of this. To get really noticable sensor size advantages, you pretty much need to go up to 135 sized sensors - a.k.a. "full frame.".

Also, I'm slightly concerned about the availability and price ofaccessories for Olympus cameras as opposed to Canon cameras... whatdo people thing about that?.

What accessories do you want?.

Any thoughts?.

My final thought. Getting 10Mp or 12Mp sensor in your new camera isn't such an important thing. Download some pictures from the E-510 and 400D and also from the E-330 review. Print them or size them in a way similar to how you think you will use your camera and you will see what I mean. The real world differences are pretty darned small..

Every camera is out of date right about the time it hits the shelf. Unless a new camera has a specific feature that you really need, an older model will probably do as well, or in some cases even better..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #2

In the long run and if you decide to expand, the Olympus would not bemy choice. The smaller 4/3 sensor is pretty much at the end if it'sability to gain more resolution with less noise..

Oh please. If that is your concern, then no APS-C camera should be considered either..

IMO, the argumentfor 4/3rds mount is no longer compelling..

Personally, I don't think it ever was. The differences between 4/3s and APS-C formats are so small as to be largely irrelevant. Between these formats, it mostly comes down to the specific features of the cameras and systems..

The trend over the yearswill be to enlarge sensors in order to increase dynamic range anddecrease noise..

There is no such current trend, so I don't see why you think the trend will change in the future. The current trend is to put more pixels on the sensor while increasing or maintaining the per-pixel performance. The net result is a gradual improvement in overall image quality..

Olympus is locked into that small sensor with it'slenses being matched to it..

As are APS-C formats - especially if you purchase lenses made specifically for those formats..

There are other aspects to the 4/3rdmount that argues for it's future, but I, personally, don't thinkit's a good enough argument, barring some major scientificbreakthrough..

The argument is simple. Smaller than 135 format sensors completely dominate the DSLR market and there is little reason to think that will change for quite some time. These smaller formats perform super at relatively low costs compared to larger sensors. And there is little on the horizon to suggest that will change..

I think Olympus's future will be small high-quality high-tech camerasthat don't have to compete with the image quality of pro-level dslrs.Put the IS technology in the E410 and they're on their way, IMHO..

The vast majority of DSLRs aren't "pro level" and never will be. The same was true of film SLRs. Pro level cameras bring specific capabilities that most amateurs don't really need, and image quality isn't necessarily the biggest one. In fact, often the lower priced cameras have essentially the same image quality. It is only in a limited set of particular circumstances where you actually get to enjoy the potential image quality benefits of a larger sensor..

Have fun and good luck..

That's the most important part. It is really hard to make a mistake with a current DSLR purchase. So don't sweat the choice too much..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #3

James Noe wrote:.

Hi,.

About to purchase my first digital SLR and I'm quite torn betweenthese two cameras....

The way I see it at the moment is that they both seem like excellentcameras and do consistently well in reviews, both on this site and invarious photgraphy magazines..

Both are good cameras..

My main issue with the EOS 400D is the lack of live view. I wearglasses and find it awkward to sometimes use the view finder. Iappreciate that auto focus isn't usable in live view mode, but Ithink it's something that would be incredibly useful for me..

The 510 will autofocus it will just take longer. I wear glasses and do not find it difficult to use the 510. I DO have some issues with the smaller view finder but I deal with it. If this is a real problem for you then you might want to look for a long zoom Point and Shoot. Unless you have a tripod the live View on the 510 will be of little use. You will never use it like a live view on a point and shoot.

Using live view IMO on a DSLR the same way it is used on a P&S is simply not practical or workable. If your going to use it for macro or portraits on a tripod it's great..

This would appear to put the E-510 in the lead, however I waswondering what people thought about the four thirds sensor. It'scertainly physically smaller than the EOS 400D, but it's differenttechnology and seems to get good reviews. In reality, for a firstdSLR will I be better off with the live view, or the larger sensor?.

Unless you are going to be blowing your shots up to huge sizes or are going to be doing equiv crops it actually makes 0 difference. There is more noise @ high ISO on the 4/3 then the Canon. It can be measured. However in most images it can't be seen and that assumes you do 0 post processing. See the following for some test shots from a basic user (e.g. me)..

Http://www.pbase.com/maddogmd11/tests.

Also, I'm slightly concerned about the availability and price ofaccessories for Olympus cameras as opposed to Canon cameras... whatdo people thing about that?.

What Accessories are you looking for. There are 31 lenses. 2 more on the way. Lenses of the same quality between Oly and Canon are comparably priced..

I'm aware that the EOS 450D is around the corner, but the initialprices are about 170 higher, which is the price of a good lens,case, tripod etc... for either of the other cameras. Also, I'd quitelike to just get started!.

Go for it and have some fun..

Any thoughts?.

Thanks,.

James.

Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #4

Thanks for all the advice all!!.

I'm pretty much thinking of going down the Olympus route now and see how I get on.... If I find in a few years after I've got to grips a bit with dSLR photogrpahy that I want the support of the big Canon/Nikons and feel that they're superior for my needs then, then I'll make a switch (thanks goodness for eBay!!). I do agree that it's best to get something that suits my needs and just get going!.

I've seen an offer online that is the older Olympus E-410 but with the kit lens, plus a 40-150mm lens for the same price as the E-510 with the kit lens..

My instant reaction is to get the E-510 with the kit lens, use it for a few months and then pick a lens that suits what I want to do next...?.

Any thoughs? And thanks again for the help... BTW, when I said accessories I guess I really meant lenses!.

Thanks again..

James..

Comment #5

I urge you to first go someplace and hold both cameras. I would say this for any camera evaluation. The body is the least important part of the system. The person holding it is the most important and you have to feel comfortable with the camera or you will not be happy. I hated the 410. It was simply too small for my hands.

My wife has one and loves it..

Evaluate what you are really going to use the camera for. I can tell you I used the 2 kit lenses for over 18 months before I bought another and had few problems. Most "issues" were because they were not fast lenses not the optical quality in any way. I still use them a great deal because they are light, focus quickly and I can carry even the 40-150 in a loose pocket in some cargo shorts..

JimOlympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #6

My instant reaction is to get the E-510 with the kit lens, use it fora few months and then pick a lens that suits what I want to donext...?.

If you can swing the two lens kit with the E-510, get it. It will save you money in the long run. The Olympus two lens kits are excellent deals..

If it were me, I'd be looking for a two lens E-330 kit.  .

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #7

James Noe wrote:.

My main issue with the EOS 400D is the lack of live view. I wearglasses and find it awkward to sometimes use the view finder. Iappreciate that auto focus isn't usable in live view mode, but Ithink it's something that would be incredibly useful for me..

If you want a better live view system, I'd look at the newer Sony DSLR models (A300, A350) with this feature..

Their design allows the same through the lens image to be seen by the camera's main AF sensor assembly (fast, 9 point system) and the separate Live View Sensor at the same time..

So, the camera doesn't have to switch in and out of live view to Autofocus, or compromise AF speed trying to use Contrast Detection AF with the main sensor..

JimChttp://www.pbase.com/jcockfield..

Comment #8

Their design allows the same through the lens image to be seen by thecamera's main AF sensor assembly (fast, 9 point system) and theseparate Live View Sensor at the same time..

So, the camera doesn't have to switch in and out of live view toAutofocus, or compromise AF speed trying to use Contrast Detection AFwith the main sensor..

Had that two years ago and coupled it with a tilting LCD to boot. Of course, it still does..

I do think Sony's idea is clever though and the notion of using a dual system is a good one. The the "mode A" liveview systems don't give the benefits of liveview coming directly from the main imaging sensor..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #9

Jay Turberville wrote:.

In the long run and if you decide to expand, the Olympus would not bemy choice. The smaller 4/3 sensor is pretty much at the end if it'sability to gain more resolution with less noise..

Oh please. If that is your concern, then no APS-C camera should beconsidered either..

Nikon and Canon both make lenses that can be used on full frame and APS size sensors. Many of us are considering not purchasing DX lenses when thinking about the future. Lenses can last through many bodies..

IMO, the argumentfor 4/3rds mount is no longer compelling..

The trend over the yearswill be to enlarge sensors in order to increase dynamic range anddecrease noise..

There is no such current trend, so I don't see why you think thetrend will change in the future. The current trend is to put morepixels on the sensor while increasing or maintaining the per-pixelperformance. The net result is a gradual improvement in overallimage quality..

So the pro-level Canons, the 5D and it's soon replacement and the Nikon D3? Nikon has admitted to a move to full frame over time. There's an obvious move over time to full frame sensors by Canon as well. Larger sensors mean a fairly easy path to improvement in image quality as well as dynamic range and low noise..

Olympus is locked into that small sensor with it'slenses being matched to it..

As are APS-C formats - especially if you purchase lenses madespecifically for those formats..

Again, both Nikon and Canon make full frame lenses. One can use those on APS cameras and eventually move up, if one chooses. Olympus has no such path..

There are other aspects to the 4/3rdmount that argues for it's future, but I, personally, don't thinkit's a good enough argument, barring some major scientificbreakthrough..

The argument is simple. Smaller than 135 format sensors completelydominate the DSLR market and there is little reason to think thatwill change for quite some time. These smaller formats perform superat relatively low costs compared to larger sensors. And there islittle on the horizon to suggest that will change..

I think you will see more and more larger sensors in the future. If I'm right, brands that have no path will not be able to compete unless they carve a nitch..

I think Olympus's future will be small high-quality high-tech camerasthat don't have to compete with the image quality of pro-level dslrs.Put the IS technology in the E410 and they're on their way, IMHO..

The vast majority of DSLRs aren't "pro level" and never will be. Thesame was true of film SLRs. Pro level cameras bring specificcapabilities that most amateurs don't really need, and image qualityisn't necessarily the biggest one. In fact, often the lower pricedcameras have essentially the same image quality. It is only in alimited set of particular circumstances where you actually get toenjoy the potential image quality benefits of a larger sensor..

Look, I didn't mean to step on Oly fans feet. No need to be defensive. I personally think the future is going to be full frame sensors. If I'm right, one might consider a brand with a path in that direction. It's a pain to switch brands after a fairly large investment..

As I said, people are purchasing a system, not just a camera. I also said that if one were just considering a body and a lens or two and don't expect to expand, they should choose the 510. I just think the sensor is too small in the long run, and there's no path to larger sensors. That's a fact, not a trash of Olympus..

All else being equal, can you think of a reason to lock yourself into a 4/3rds sensor size with no upgrade path?.

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #10

Nikon and Canon both make lenses that can be used on full frame andAPS size sensors. Many of us are considering not purchasing DX lenseswhen thinking about the future. Lenses can last through many bodies..

Fair enough, but if that is the plan you are suggesting, you should make it clear to the OP and at least mention the issues that surround the change in format..

So the pro-level Canons, the 5D and it's soon replacement and theNikon D3?.

OTOH, Kodak bowed out of the "full frame" camera market. Nikon did enter it and Sony might as well. Canon still offers two cameras in that format. So there are currently three cameras with that sensor format and probably one new one on the way. Now how many current smaller format DSLRs are there? Clue - a lot more!.

Nikon has admitted to a move to full frame over time..

Where have they admitted that and what time frame did they give? A couple decades?.

There's an obvious move over time to full frame sensors by Canon aswell..

No there isn't. They have two models. Only one has been offered over multiple generations. They also offer a 1.3x format camera. Canon seems dedicated to covering all the format bases..

Larger sensors mean a fairly easy path to improvement in imagequality as well as dynamic range and low noise..

They are an expensive path. That is why there are so few of them. If the sensor cost was not an issue, we never would have seen 4/3s or APS-C. The smaller format was chosen due to cost issues. I've yet to see any credible source explain how the proportional gap in costs between 135 format sensors and the APS-C / 4/3s group of sensors is likely to drop..

Again, both Nikon and Canon make full frame lenses. One can use thoseon APS cameras and eventually move up, if one chooses. Olympus has nosuch path..

Yes, one can. But when you change formats, the lens function changes. In fact, it is exactly this that has had many Nikon folks so irritated about Nikon being slow to introduce a 135 format DSLR. They had to re-jigger their lens collection to have the same functionality that they previously enjoyed. Having lenses that can work on two formats is a definite plus for a system. But it is not without it's problems..

I think you will see more and more larger sensors in the future. IfI'm right, brands that have no path will not be able to competeunless they carve a nitch..

And you think this because there are now a total of three current production 135 format DSLRs? There were that many five years ago or whenever it was that Kodak had it's two DSLRs in production. If a trend towards 135 format develops, it will be a long time coming. There is very little indication of any such trend today. The biggest possible indicator is the existence of Sony's 135 format sensor (rumored?). We'll have to see what kind of cameras that ends up in and how successful they are compared to the smaller format competition. Personally, I see 135 format becoming the new medium format and APS-C/four-thirds taking the place previously occupied by 35mm film.



Look, I didn't mean to step on Oly fans feet. No need to bedefensive..

I disagree with you and see a lack of support for some of your assertions. I'm not an Olympus "fan" and I'm not being defensive. You just haven't made a good case is all..

I personally think the future is going to be full framesensors. If I'm right, one might consider a brand with a path in thatdirection. It's a pain to switch brands after a fairly largeinvestment..

And if you are wrong, other good choices will be foregone. And the fact is that you don't know if you are right or not. Furthermore, good arguments can be made that you aren't even close to right and that it is very unlikely that the OP will ever want or need a larger format..

I agree that if you are contemplating spending many thousands of dollars on lenses, then the 135 format option is something to seriously consider. But the OP is talking about buying a budget DSLR. So your introduction of the whole 135 format issue and your poorly supported predictions are - well - largely not relelvant. That's why I took issue with them. The OP deserves to hear the bigger picture..

As I said, people are purchasing a system, not just a camera..

Not necessarily. Some people are purchasing a camera and some people are purchasing a camera and maybe one extra lens. In fact, that describes most DSLR purchases..

The system concept meant a lot more back in the film days. Back then you needed motor drives, winders, bulk film backs, special finders etc. With DSLRs, these things are often not relevant. Today, it's mostly a matter of the flash system, availability of grips, and the lens catalog. Today it is less of a system than in the past..

I alsosaid that if one were just considering a body and a lens or two anddon't expect to expand, they should choose the 510. I just think thesensor is too small in the long run, and there's no path to largersensors. That's a fact, not a trash of Olympus..

It is a fact that Olympus has shown no indication of a plan or desire to have a path to a larger format. Whether or not the sensor is too small or not is simply your opinion. You seem to mix up your opinions with facts at times..

All else being equal, can you think of a reason to lock yourself intoa 4/3rds sensor size with no upgrade path?.

By no upgrade path, you must mean no path to a larger format. There are other ways to upgrade a camera than to change formats..

As for reasons to choose a 4/3s camera, features and price lead the list..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #11

Ok, we'll see. I think Nikon will release a consumer full frame in the not to distant future. I think Sony will release one, as you mentioned. I think Canon will update the 5D pretty soon and possibly another less expensive full frame further along..

I think we're about 2-4 years from the D300 / 40D price range going full frame..

You're right, what has kept full frame from being used has been price, but as everything regarding price and electronics, it comes down rapidly. I paid $1259 for a meg of memory in 1981. That's a 10th of a gig. I paid $100 for 8 gigs of memory in a flash card last week..

Digital SLRs cost $20,000 not long ago. They cost a fraction of that today and are much better. There are limits that 4/3rds and even the larger APS sensors can reach. As technology moves forward, those limits expand, but as price plummets a move to larger sensors is an easier path, IMO. Combine a larger sensor with those same technological refinements and you're really going to move forward to higher resolution and lower noise..

I agree that much of the above is my opinion, and I've stated that time and again. I've also stated that if this comes to pass, all is not lost for the 4/3rds mount. They can carve a nitch in the small, high-quality market, similar to the OM series of the past. Of course the huge E3 doesn't fit that model, but the E410 might...

Comment #12

Guidenet wrote:.

You're right, what has kept full frame from being used has beenprice, but as everything regarding price and electronics, it comesdown rapidly. I paid $1259 for a meg of memory in 1981. That's a 10thof a gig. I paid $100 for 8 gigs of memory in a flash card last week..

More like a 1000th...

Digital SLRs cost $20,000 not long ago. They cost a fraction of thattoday and are much better. There are limits that 4/3rds and even thelarger APS sensors can reach. As technology moves forward, thoselimits expand, but as price plummets a move to larger sensors is aneasier path, IMO..

Actually the easier path is the one to more efficient sensors because then you could practically leave everything in the camera the same (size being an issue at FF sensors) and just put in a better but same sized chip. All in all from the development view it's just cheaper and better in the long run. And if I remember right, some APS sensors are getting smaller too... here a mm, there a mm...it adds up....

I agree that much of the above is my opinion, and I've stated thattime and again. I've also stated that if this comes to pass, all isnot lost for the 4/3rds mount..

The 4/3rds are doing fine, especially for dslr beginners who are not blinded by brand names and who are not bound to a system. The way I see it, with the megapixelrace starting in the dslr market, the effective pixel size of an aps sensor will soon be as small or smaller than my old 10mp e-510. But you know what ? Size means nothing...its all about efficiency.....

Comment #13

Ok, we'll see. I think Nikon will release a consumer full frame inthe not to distant future. I think Sony will release one, as youmentioned. I think Canon will update the 5D pretty soon and possiblyanother less expensive full frame further along..

I think we're about 2-4 years from the D300 / 40D price range goingfull frame..

And you base these predictions on on what?.

You're right, what has kept full frame from being used has beenprice, but as everything regarding price and electronics, it comesdown rapidly. I paid $1259 for a meg of memory in 1981. That's a 10thof a gig. I paid $100 for 8 gigs of memory in a flash card last week..

And have you thought about why? One of the main reasons is that with newer processes, they can fit more elements on the same sized piece of silicon. The corrolary to that in DSLRs is fitting more pixels on the same sized sensor while keeping the photodiode sizes roughly the same size or even increasing their sizes at times. It isn't making larger pieces of silicon less expensive. There are real issues with making larger sensors that have to do with stepper motor sizes and reduced yield due to the larger size. You simply do not have all the same technology forces working to drive down large sensor costs..

Digital SLRs cost $20,000 not long ago. They cost a fraction of thattoday and are much better..

The typical 135 format DSLR still costs around $5000. The Canon 1DS series has been at around $8500 since the first version. Nikon's D3 is $5500. I don't know where you get the $20,000 number from. The 5D is the one exception. And from what I've read, it was not a resounding success.

The example of one camea does not a trend make..

There are limits that 4/3rds and even thelarger APS sensors can reach. As technology moves forward, thoselimits expand, but as price plummets a move to larger sensors is aneasier path, IMO..

But it isn't. What's cheaper, a compact with 12Mp or a Canon 5D? What makes memory cheaper? Answer: putting more elements on the same sized silicon. What's the trend in compact? Smaller and smaller sensors. Why? Because small silicon continues to be cheaper and as camera profit margins shrink, saving every penny on costs counts..

Surely more 135 format cameras will come. But there is little reason to suspect that they will begin to dominate the market or that the market is trending that way..

Combine a larger sensor with those sametechnological refinements and you're really going to move forward tohigher resolution and lower noise..

Yes. Ulltimately quality favors the large sensor. The problem is how much and at what cost. And that's what you haven't really researched or considered very well..

I agree that much of the above is my opinion, and I've stated thattime and again. I've also stated that if this comes to pass, all isnot lost for the 4/3rds mount. They can carve a nitch in the small,high-quality market, similar to the OM series of the past. Of coursethe huge E3 doesn't fit that model, but the E410 might..

Well, check back in five years. I think it is much more likely that 135 format will still be the "niche" format and that APS-C and 4/3s will dominate sales..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #14

Jay Turberville wrote:.

Ok, we'll see. I think Nikon will release a consumer full frame inthe not to distant future. I think Sony will release one, as youmentioned. I think Canon will update the 5D pretty soon and possiblyanother less expensive full frame further along..

I think we're about 2-4 years from the D300 / 40D price range goingfull frame..

And you base these predictions on on what?.

I think a good read on this might be:.

Http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/...pher/2008/02/sensor-sizes-pa.html.

Well, check back in five years. I think it is much more likely that135 format will still be the "niche" format and that APS-C and 4/3swill dominate sales..

You could very well be right but it could also be some kind of super sensor with a completely new size will be developed by then..

The only know way to know is to wait and see.....

Comment #15

I think we're about 2-4 years from the D300 / 40D price range goingfull frame..

And you base these predictions on on what?.

I think a good read on this might be:.

Http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/...pher/2008/02/sensor-sizes-pa.html.

Ummm... He's making most of my arguments, not yours. Maybe a re-read is in order..

Well, check back in five years. I think it is much more likely that135 format will still be the "niche" format and that APS-C and 4/3swill dominate sales..

You could very well be right but it could also be some kind of supersensor with a completely new size will be developed by then..

The only know way to know is to wait and see....

Yep..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #16

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