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Best for shooting molotov cocktails?
Hi all!.

I am very new to the world of photography but am planing to take it very seriously. This is 1 part due to a newly found passion and secondly for professional reasons..

I study journalism and also travel quite a bit, plus I play in a rock band. But primarily I would be shooting at media events (not press conferences but skinheads clashing with riot police) and during travel. I have approx. 1000-1500 USD to spend on everything..

After doing lots of research I narrowed down my camera options to a Nikon D80 or a Canon 400D. From my understanding the picture quality of both is great but the Nikon has the slight upper hand (and more expensive). I made my decision after looking at many pictures and finding that the ones that really caught my eye were made with Nikons. I am guessing it's just a mater of taste....

And then came the lenses. So maybe it's not taste after all? Whats the deal? Can I get what I see in a Nikon photo (whatever that may be) with a Canon if I have the right lenses to go with it? Or does the body give a base for all else?.

Whatever the case, could you give me some suggestions on camera and lenses taking into consideration the type of photography I will be doing..

Sorry for being a noob but this is the beginners forum All the bestRob..

Comments (25)

You are completely overlooking the post processing that most do before sharing their work. What you are liking is the photographers overall ability with both the computer and software. What I am saying is a good photog chooses his camera based on feel in the hand and personal experience adapting to how the camera works first for him. It's personel, the tech side of things can be met with most any good camera. Good lenses may actually be more important depending on how technical or how artsy your work is..

Buy the camera that fits your hand the best and your fingers can manipulate the controls most naturally for you......Dennis..

Comment #1

Erob wrote:.

After doing lots of research I narrowed down my camera options to aNikon D80 or a Canon 400D. From my understanding the picture qualityof both is great but the Nikon has the slight upper hand (and moreexpensive). I made my decision after looking at many pictures andfinding that the ones that really caught my eye were made withNikons. I am guessing it's just a mater of taste....

The camera is the LEAST important factor in how good a photo is. Photographer/post-processing skills and lens account for 90%..

Comment #2

Ok Rob, I'm going to be real blunt here, even if you are beginner. There are some thing someone in college should just be able to reason out..

I think you should forget all this digital sillyness and get a view camera. After all that's what was used by Ansel Adams and his shots were really freakin' great. Maybe if we use the same canvas and brushes and paint we could all do stuff like Leo or Vince..

I hope you get my drift. To paraphase a famous line. Camera's don't take pictures, people take pictures. The camera in general and the brand in particular have very little impact in most cases when compared to the person holding the camera and doing the processing..

Before you drop a grand on a camera or take anyones advice on what you should buy, drop 30 bucks on a book on general photography..

MaddogOlympus E-500, Olympus E-510..

Comment #3

That you had a large enough sample and really did find something discernably different in Nikons and Nikon lenses. Then, no, it's not available in Canons and Canon lenses (or others either). After all, you didn't find a universal appealling array of images and gear..

Or, you've biased your selection by an assumed result, or you have an inadequate sample and so bad results..

I'd suggest you could take two paths. One is to get gear which is professional quality - sealed, rugged, etc. Whioch you can't get in yur budget unless very judiciously buying used. Or get cheap gear and throw it away after it's thrashed and contaminated...

Comment #4

Thank you all. Theres nothing wrong with being blunt, I can take a beating on an internet forum any day .

I get your point...I just figure that it's much much harder to learn from a book without a camera in hand then with one and I've waited so long that I am getting impatient..

But if theres any literature you could recommend, that would also be great..

Thanks allR...

Comment #5

I disagree with some of the replies to date - especially the patronising tone of some which in part may arise from not reading your post carefully..

Any pro who started with film will tell you that different emulsions gave a different look to the photo (Velvia, Fulvia etc etc). The digital innards now replace the film and proscribe the "look" of the photo setting the curve, colour saturation etc, etc BUT some of those parameters are switcheable so you can alter the look. Nevertheless I do read comments from pros (Thom Hogan comes to mind) who speak of a Canon or Nikon look to an image. From my own observations Olympus tends towards cooler colours by way of simple illustration..

If you really are going to take photos in a riot you will want a very rugged camera. A Nikon D200 or Canon 30D would do. You might consider one of those used or maybe pick up a new one at a good price as both are now essentailly superceeded models..

As for a lens I have no experience of photojournalism. My general comment would be that you need quality gear. You will need several lenses and ideally all will need to be good low light lenses. I suggest you look at maybe some Sigma or Tamron f/2.8 glass or used lenses from your chosen camera mfr..

If you are commonly going to be in the middle of riot portability may be more important than ultimate low light performance. However I suggest that you need to cover 17/18-200 in two or three f/2.8 lenses.

For ultimate low light simplicity you also might want something like a 30mm f/1.4 prime..

All of the above is going to take you way beyond your budget so some general advice - spend as little as you need on the camera body and as much as you can afford on the glass..

Regarding the merits of the two cameras you mention both will give excellent results but the D80 has a much better viewfinder and, in my view superior ergonomics, and on any view a better flash system (though much of this advantage is probably of limited value in PJ work)..

A D80 plus Tamron or Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 plus Sigma 50-150 f/2.8 would make a reasonable start. Add a 1.4 x teleconverter and you have 18-200mm covered and a very portable outfit..

A better bet for PJ work would be a Nikon D300, 17-55 f/2.8 plus 70-200 f/2.8 VR plus SB-800 but you will choke on the prices (Canon will have similar models but I am less familiar with the lineup)..

There are other types of PJ work requiring very long lenses, a monopod and, sometimes, a step ladder. I won't go there. the cost would depress you too much!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #6

Chris: thank you very much for your reply, obviously it is extremely helpful. Unfortunately I can't go much further above my cost limit so the higher up models you mentioned are sadly out of the question because of my price limit, BUT since you say less on a body, more on glass, wouldn't it be better to aim lower then a D80? And spend a bit more on a glass? This is the opposite of what you have offered because you aimed a bit higher but if I am going to spend less on a body then it could be a Canon D400 or a Nikon D40, right? Although I have read that the D40 lacks an autofocus motor which may be an issue in my case...?.

I will look into all the lenses you offered..

Thank you very much, your advise is highly appreciated.R...

Comment #7

You will probably meet anti riot water guns, right ? Get a k10d..

Erob wrote:.

Hi all!.

I am very new to the world of photography but am planing to take itvery seriously. This is 1 part due to a newly found passion andsecondly for professional reasons..

I study journalism and also travel quite a bit, plus I play in a rockband. But primarily I would be shooting at media events (not pressconferences but skinheads clashing with riot police) and duringtravel. I have approx. 1000-1500 USD to spend on everything..

After doing lots of research I narrowed down my camera options to aNikon D80 or a Canon 400D. From my understanding the picture qualityof both is great but the Nikon has the slight upper hand (and moreexpensive). I made my decision after looking at many pictures andfinding that the ones that really caught my eye were made withNikons. I am guessing it's just a mater of taste....

And then came the lenses. So maybe it's not taste after all? Whats thedeal? Can I get what I see in a Nikon photo (whatever that may be)with a Canon if I have the right lenses to go with it? Or does thebody give a base for all else?.

Whatever the case, could you give me some suggestions on camera andlenses taking into consideration the type of photography I will bedoing..

Sorry for being a noob but this is the beginners forum All the bestRob..

Comment #8

If you are going lower I would suggest you consider a used D50 (or D70) (ideally a reconditioned example of either). That way you can use screw drive lenses like the Nikkor 35-70mm f/2.8 which was the primary PJ lens in 35mm days. A 24-70 would be better now but the new Nikon one would clean you out and then some..

You would really need a spare body as a back up anyway (I have a D50 as backup to my D80). You cannot do pro work without backup for everything..

If you are going Nikon do keep a weather eye on whether a lens is AF or AF-S. I expect that eventually only pro bodies will work with AF. Also whether the lens is DX or FX (the latter being for full frame and the default and thus does not appear on lens descriptions). Even if you ultimately buy a pro body you might want to use say something like a D80 as backup. If your lenses were almost all AF-S/HSM the D40x would eventually make an excellent light weight backup cam..

If you are going with Nikon either you buy D40/D40x plus AF-S/HSM lenses or you buy D50/D70 and go for used pro lenses..

The D40(x) plus Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 HSM plus 50-150 f/2.8 HSM would work nicely together. Equally a D50 plus Tamron or Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 plus 50-150 Sigma or older Nikkor push pull 80-200 f/2.8 would work well together..

There are decent f/2.8 AF lenses going used:Nikkor 35-70Sigma 24-70Nikkor 80-200.

These lenses are all heavy and quallity build. No point in me giving you prices. I am the wrong side of the Atlantic!.

Buying camera bodies used on Ebay can be tricky. Lenses are not such a problem. Either way you need to use your brain and common sense and check out feedback. If a deal is too good to be true then unless you are very lucky it is a dud. I will only consider spending big money on Ebay if I can pay cash and collect. I have bought both new an used lenses on Ebay without problems including a new import from Hong Kong..

The ideal way to start if buying used is to buy a camera body from a colleague who might make you pay a few dollars over the odds but will not fleece you and sell you a dud..

Always ask for the shutter count on a used cam. The info is readily available from the EXIF readout. If you download Opanda (freeware) you can read it for yourself if they email a recent photo to you..

Hope that helps!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #9

Rob,.

When I said spend the 30 bucks on a book I wasn't trying to slam you. I was being serious. You will get tons of buy a D200, D3, D40, E510, K10, etc. The fact is that all these cameras will produce excellent results in the correct hands. But before you plop down the $$ you need to know what you want to do..

What are you going to do with the shots? Print, web, newspaper, etc. They will all drive different decisions. What type of lens do you need to produce the type of shots you want? Are you shooting daylight, nighttime, indoors, outside, good weather, bad weather? All these drive the decision of what camera to get and how much it will cost..

I would get a book on basic general digital photography. Look at the types of photos, how a camera works, what lenses to use for different shots. In short have a foundation from which to ask questions. Look at the specs on DPreview and do a side by side comparison. Then go to a shop where you can hold the cameras. I don't mean one of the places that have 30 cameras on "can't steal me cables".

Also find a place that has people that can answer questions. Since you will have some basic knowledge you can ask a few questions to see if the folks helping you have any knowledge. If they think an F stop is getting somebody else to take your test, find another shop..

Lastly when you come back and ask the same type of question here be aware that people that own Nikon's will say buy a Nikon, same for Canon, same for Olympus, same for Pentax. But since you will then be armed with enough knowledge you can ask specific questions to some degree about each camera..

I'm assuming that you are in college. My kids are in college and 1500 bucks is a good deal of money to them and to me and I assume to you. It is an investment that will be used for many years but it is also one that will depreciate as soon as you walk out the store so making an uninformed decision or simply taking somebody's advice from a web forum may lead to one of those "learning experiences" that everyone talks about..

MaddogOlympus E-500, Olympus E-510..

Comment #10

Buy the Nikkor 18-200mm Vibration Reduction lens (imported) for $680.

Http://www.bhphotovideo.com/...Nikon_2159_18_200mm_f_3_5_5_6G_ED_IF_AF_S.html.

Buy the Nikon D80 for $860..

Http://www.bhphotovideo.com/...61-REG/Nikon_25412_D80_SLR_Digital_Camera.html.

Take a free online photography course once you get the setup..

The advantages:.

- You know the look you want is achievable from Nikon; all you have to do is learn how to achieve it..

- This is a one-lens setup that takes you from medium wide to medium long, the range that will be most useful to you..

- The Nikkor 18-200VR lens is excellent. You'll trade the D80 for a D300 some day, but you'll keep the 18-200..

I can recommend a couple of good free online photography courses if you like..

Also take a look at photo sites like pbase for people shooting Nikon in circumstances similar to yours. See what focal length they've chosen, what shutter speeds, what apertures and ISO sensitivities. Then use similar settings in similar situations...

Comment #11

Erob wrote:.

...primarily I would be shooting at media events (not pressconferences but skinheads clashing with riot police) and duringtravel. I have approx. 1000-1500 USD to spend on everything..

You have a tight budget! Much of the advice you have received, so far, has been OK, I guess. I'll try NOT to tell you which camera and lenses to get as that's your personal decision..

After doing lots of research I narrowed down my camera options to aNikon D80 or a Canon 400D. From my understanding the picture qualityof both is great but the Nikon has the slight upper hand (and moreexpensive). I made my decision after looking at many pictures andfinding that the ones that really caught my eye were made withNikons. I am guessing it's just a mater of taste....

Yes, both Nikon and Canon are quality gear. I can't explain why, but they attract different classes of people. Nikon owners drive Porsches, Hondas, and Subarus. Canon owners drive Corvettes, Toyotas, and F150s. These are all good cars (except for the Ford), but the drivers are different! SO, tell me what car you drive (or aspire to drive) and I can suggest a compatible camera. .

And then came the lenses. So maybe it's not taste after all? Whats thedeal? Can I get what I see in a Nikon photo (whatever that may be)with a Canon if I have the right lenses to go with it? Or does thebody give a base for all else?.

The lenses are more important than the body, where IQ is concerned. But each camera manufacturer DOES have a different "look"...defined by the default settings. Also (and this is grossly overlooked), camera manufacturers "fiddle" with the images in the camera...even RAW images have been "processed"! Canon has for years done something INSIDE their CMOS sensors to reduce the noise. It's amazing, but does seem to soften their images a bit. Nikon does not have access to this technology, as most of their sensors are built by Sony. Nikon images have a bit more noise and a bit more detail (in RAW form).



Mostly, the "look" of an image is created in PP. Nikon owners, having a more refined sense of taste, do a better job, perhap?. .

Whatever the case, could you give me some suggestions on camera andlenses taking into consideration the type of photography I will bedoing..

Start with one good zoom. Get one that is toward the WA end. Get one with about 5X zoom and at least f:2.8. Pick a body that is comfortable to hold and operate!.

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Comment #12

The Morgue File (suitable for tossers of Molotov cocktails)..

Http://www.morguefile.com/...24d7f0&MORGUEFILE=v79mum0i6ffou6o3qdkjnb14n3.

I also recommend The Radiant Vista Daily Critique. You'll learn a lot about composition from it.http://www.radiantvista.com/critique.

I don't understand the reluctance of some of the other posters to recommend a camera and lens combination to you. That's what you asked for. Plus you stated a preference for the Nikon image outcomes. Well, I guess I can understand it to some extent - sometimes people will push their favourite camera even if it's not suitable for the poster's situation. Just to clear the air, I shoot SONY DSLRs because I like image stabilization built into the body rather than the lens. But you didn't ask about the best camera, you asked about Nikon.



This combination of the D80 and 18-200 VR is great for travelling (one of your criteria) because your most used range is achieved in a single lens. Easy for packing. Less likelihood of dust getting onto the sensor when you change lenses, since you won't be changing lenses..

It's good for photojournalism because the lens isn't super-intrusive. Here's what a 50-500mm Sigma lens looks like fully extended..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

You don't want to wade into a crowd with a beast like that..

What it's not good for is super low-light situations. Its maximum aperture is f/3.5, but to get the ultimate maximum for a zoom of f/2.8 you're going to have to either spend a wad of cash or buy more than one lens, which leads to spending a wad of cash. The Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8 zoom costs $1,200 and it's not image stabilized (which is why I prefer SONY - all lenses are stabilized - see, there I go pushing a camera that you didn't want. LOL) Plus you'd still need another lens to cover normal (50mm) to telephoto..

On the other hand, Pop Photo gave the Nikkor 18-200mm VR the best ranking for in-lens image stabilization, a useful asset when the light is low and the subject isn't moving much..

Http://www.popphoto.com/...ation-special-stop-the-shake-lab-report-page2.html.

Camera Labs rated the Nikkor very highlyblocked URL.

Although they say the Sigma and Tamron equivalents would have delivered similar picture quality at a much lower price, but the other two didn't have vibration reduction (which is why I prefer.but you know that already)..

Thom Hagen, a Nikon expert and poster in the Nikon forum here at dpreview, in reviewing the 18-200mm VR says 'superzooms shouldn't be this good'.http://www.bythom.com/18200lens.htm.

The D80 + 18-200mm VR lens is $40 over the top end of your budget, but it gives you everything you need except a compact flash card (skip accessories such as flash for now)..

By the way, I loved your subject header. A real attention grabber...

Comment #13

Useful for me too..

Something different (more philosophical maybe) but also nice on why pictures work, is here :http://www.pbase.com/pnd1/root.

Just strat browsing through the categories, marvel at the pictures and read (some of) the remarks.One of my cherished bookmarks !.

Roel..

Comment #14

I wish there were a forum here for learning how to take better photographs. Something not focused on the hardware or the post processing software..

I like the way Phil Douglis approaches the capturing of an image - expressive versus descriptive or artistic. I can see myself taking fewer photos, but putting more thought into them..

Thanks for the link..

Dennis..

Comment #15

A couple of quick comments arrising out of recent posts:.

1. Nothing wrong with the 18-200 VR for shooting in *good* daylight. But it is a slow lens. At 70mm maximum aperture is already f/5. So do you tell the editor you could not get the shot without motion blur? The difference between f2.8 and f/5 is almost two stops and thus is the diffrence between say 1/60th and 1/200th in poor light. The latter will stop slow to medium action the former will not.

Take your choice. The 18-200 VR is an excellent light weight carry around lens as Thom Hogan says. He can afford to say that when he has another 20 or so lenses to chose from for tougher conditions (And by the way he is pricipally a landscape photographer)..

2. There is no such thing as a 5x f2.8 zoom for DSLRs (or SLRs) If there were I would either have one or be saving for one. The maximum you get with a constant f/2.8 is 3x which is why I do most of my low light theatre shooting with two cameras and two f/2.8 zoom lenses on a T bar off a tripod to give me 24- 200 at f/2.8!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #16

Hi all! Thank you so very much for all your help, I am truly overwhelmed and will do all I can to fully take into consideration everyones input. I will attempt to give a quick answer to everybody and then dive into the details of your responses..

Chris: again, thank you. I still have not made up my mind on the brand yet. Although I did highlight Nikon a teacher of mine here in Budapest who owns a photo agency and has covered every major conflict from 1990 to 2004 from Rwanda to the WTC put his tick next to Canon which really put things in a new light. I will look into all you have mentioned and see what my budget would allow. Your idea of turning my first purchase into a backup later on is very interesting and may steer me towards a cheaper Nikon or maybe a Canon 400D (?). But thanks, really..

Maddog: You are 100% right in what you said and I was less offended than persuaded. If you could perhaps list a few titles I would gladly put them on my list of literature. Its just that I know myself and I really need some motivation to get me moving...if you play any musical instrument you may understand what fuel you can get from a new set of strings or a new amp head  Also, I was thinking that whatever I read, I will still be overwhelmed with whats on the market, so I am trying to see what people suggest..

Chuxter: I tried to think of 3 cars I'd drive but I am to ignorant to know what the difference would be...I am just not into cars  But I'll it this way: I owned a Warick Corvette Proline, own a Korean Lakland 55-02 and dream of a Sadowsky. Hope you can understand .

Dennis: you plugged Sony very elegantly  Thanks for all your information, much to look into. My thread title: that why I study journalism  Have to sell the story somehow .

Thank you all. I will be digging through details and monitoring the post for more Thanks againRob..

Comment #17

Rob,.

Thank you for the effort of something more than a perfunctory reply (You will be suprised how many people do not even bother with that!).

Nothing wrong with Canon cameras. Many probably most PJs have them but when they started out Nikon was way behind in development of long fast lenses (particularly in motor lenses). That no longer applies. The playing field is more even and you can chose either. So the recommendation that you have got does not surprise me (I have met a few Nikon PJs) My experience is Nikon and before that Olympus (and before that a Minolta SLR). I made the move to Nikon for good low light performance for theatre work without flash.

Hence my choice..

Remember you are buying a system not just a camera. If you are going with Canon you might want to look for a used 20D.The trouble with the 350D and 400D is that small viewfinder and the dinky size..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #18

Rob,.

Here are a couple..

Perfect Digital Photography by Jay Dickman.

Mastering Your Digital Slr: How To Get The Most Out Of Your Digital Camera by Chris Weston.

Once you get the camera you want I HIGHLY suggest that you get a book on composition, then take about a zillion shots and learn how to use your hardware..

Good Luck. Remember what I said. Nikon people will say get a Nikon, Canon people will say get a Canon, Oly people will say get an Oly, etc. Nobody will tell you that THEIR baby is ugly..

MaddogOlympus E-500, Olympus E-510..

Comment #19

If I am not mistaken the Nikon 18-200 lens you mentioned is also made by sigma for significantly less although it lakes stabilization...if I am correct would this be an options beside a D80?..

Comment #20

The Sigma 18-200 OS is even worse than the Nikon in low light. At the telephoto end it is f/6.3 max..

I think the Nikon 18-200 VR can be fairly described as a luxury travel lens of good kit lens quality. It is not a pro lens. Its performance wide open is uneven and average AND it is a slow lens to start with..

Sigma produce some very good lenses but occasionally drop a clanger. I have not seen any authoratative reviews to give any opinion on this one.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #21

I did the research and found exactly what you responded. I am looking into the lenses you offered and have decided on the Nikon D80 because on the long run I think it will be the best to grow into whereas the D40/40x seem too "entry level" for the mid run, let alone the long..

Canon may still play, but all reviews and opinions are that if you have a little more, the Nikon is defiantly a better buy...its a very hard decision because the plain is so even....

I may post a new thread on lenses because after taking every bodies advice into consideration and doing some research (and taking the online courses ) I see what I have to look for but as I suspected there are still so many lenses to choose from. Financially I would be much better of getting the kit lenses that suit me best (the smart guys at Nikon marketing ) but I am looking into the lenses you offered and may be able to get some sweet deals on the net. Yes, I have closed out the 18-200 Nikon because it's not really what I will be needing..

I have spent the past week on the net researching but am still overwhelmed with all the information but my options are narrowing. Any time now, any time ..

Comment #22

If you do perceive and like the "Nikon look," then it does follow that you'd want to go Nikon. Then you would also probably still want to go through the look (displays) and feel of the various cameras, as Nikon handing/controls are different from that of Canon (as with all brands)..

3rd party lenses may be a consideration whichever camera you go with, they may or may not change the "look.".

The environment you want to encounter can drive choice considerations. If you can't afford to lose or insure your gear, then you have to take the necessary cautions to not get it trashed, exposure to excessive handling stresses, water, riot control agents, etc..

I'm not sure I'd suggest a particular camera. The new low end models aren't necessarily fragile but they aren't as tough as the "professional" models. Entry levels may have some performance or feature trades you might find limiting later. Lenses are more durable in that they can grow with newer/better bodies nor are they superceded as often. Which are some of the reasons they tend towards keeping their value over time..

Your budget level really does ask for some compromises..

I'd kind of lean towards a couple of 2.8 lenses. It would be hard to find a sealed professional set in your budget. I'd be thinking the 17-50/2.8 Tamron (or similar) but used may be a bit hard to find, then one of the Sigma or maker's 70(or 80)-200/2.8s. The camera makers 70-200s tend to be very sturdy, rugged lenses. Some of the older models come relatively low in price used. Again, not necessarily with the same performance features as new ones, thinking recent faster focus motors or current updated coatings..

Consider insurance. It's a bit of a gamble, you trade limited budget for protection for what you do get though...

Comment #23

You've narrowed it down to a Nikon D80 camera..

Now would be a good time to change to the Nikon D80 forum and the Nikon SLR Lens forum for specifics on the choice of lens..

Good luck in your search...

Comment #24

Chris and every body else: thank you very much for your help. It truly has excelled me towards a purchase and I feel I will be making a decision a good decision. I will migrate to new forums and threads for further, specified assistance  Thank you again..

R...

Comment #25

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This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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