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Are anti-dust features worth it?
I'm going to buy my first dslr shortly and am wondering how people feel about the anti-dust features of canon's rebel xti, the sony alpha 200 and the olympus evolt 510. I am wondering if it is even worth it to make sure a camera model has this feature, or if dust cleaning truly is something the camera /img/avatar5.jpg will have to do themselves. I am curious to know since I am leaning towards the nikon models that do NOT feature anti-dust, but if it is a camera feature that really makes a difference, I might want to just stick to one of the three models I listed. What are your thoughts on anti dust and cameras?..

Comments (34)

I was in the same position as you. Ended up with a Nikon and a Artic Butterfly. Dust is not an issue easy to remove. My flatmate has a Canon 400D, and he still needs to borrow my Artic Butterfly occasionally..

Also read some test before buying my camera and they didn't gie anti-dust much credit...

Comment #1

Http://pixinfo.com/en/articles/ccd-dust-removal/.

To sum it up, someone put dust on the sensor of different sensors and ran the dust removal system 25 times. Only Olympus's system worked reasonably well removing 50% of the dust, the rest were 5%-0%..

I wouldn't base a purchasing decision on this feature. $10 for a rocket blower... which you'll end up needing anyway because the effeciency of the anti dust systems are so poor...

Comment #2

RyanPK1981 wrote:.

I'm going to buy my first dslr shortly and am wondering how peoplefeel about the anti-dust features of canon's rebel xti, the sonyalpha 200 and the olympus evolt 510. I am wondering if it is evenworth it to make sure a camera model has this feature, or if dustcleaning truly is something the camera owner will have to dothemselves. I am curious to know since I am leaning towards the nikonmodels that do NOT feature anti-dust, but if it is a camera featurethat really makes a difference, I might want to just stick to one ofthe three models I listed. What are your thoughts on anti dust andcameras?.

A Rocket Blower and the occasional cleaning works fine for me. The Olympus camera seems to have an effective cleaning solution, I'm not sure about the others, but you should Google for what tests there are out there- ISTR the Canon system being worse than not doing it. In general, you can pretty-much bet that if it's a necessity, it's on the high-end professional bodies, if it isn't, that's a hint that it's not all that critical. Sensor cleaning isn't on the high-end bodies yet..

You're buying a *system* rather than just the current body, so you should make sure that you're happy with the direction and otehr models available to get an idea of what a vendor is going to provide in the future. Truthfully, you'll not likely be able to do much different with any of your listed choices (or other similar cameras.) But if you do get "into" it then lenses and flashes will be with you for a large number of years, and you'll be getting a newer body in probably 2-3 years..

With Olympus, you're commiting to the 4/3rds system, and you'll have to decide if that's acceptable for what you may shoot in the future. It means smaller, lighter equipment, but also has drawbacks..

With Sony or Pentax, you get more features in the body you'll buy today- and that's likely to continue because they're not Canon or Nikon..

With Canon or Nikon, you'll have more body options, more selection in terms of 3rd party equipment, but you'll pay a slight "brand premium" for that..

The caveat I'll give for the low-end Nikon systems (D40, D40x, D60) is that they don't have in-body focus motors, so you'll have to go with mostly newer lenses, especially in the cheaper end of the spectrum, or deal with manual focus if you want an older lens or one that hasn't yet been updated (in Nikon lenses, the ones that work are AF-S, for Sigma HSM.) That may not be a big deal for you, and even the 3rd party manufacturers are adding focus motors to their f-mount lenses left and right..

My general advice is this:.

If you think you've got a chance of really getting into photography, go with Canon or Nikon- lens rental, equipment availability and body choices are easy there. It's not really about image quality though, it's about being able to carry the corner cases as you get more serious..

If you're just going to shoot pictures for yourself, any of the others will give you more bang for your buck. Choose the system that you like the best, if possible after handling most of the candidates..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #3

In a few years of having a dSLR I've spent maybe 2-3 hours cleaning sensors. My sensors and friends' sensors. For quite a lot of cameras..

It takes about 1-2 minutes to clean a sensor, if it's not the first time I clean that specific camera. If it's the first time, it takes a bit longer. Why?.

Because almost always, the first time I clean the sensor, it's not dust I am cleaning. It's gunk, probably lubricant from inside the camerea. Of course, that can't be blown or brushed off, you need to wet clean. Of course, it won't come off with any of the auto cleaning technologies..

Of course, that's my experience with dSLRs. Basically I check the camera every few months for dust (or when I return from dusty environments, or when I have an important shoot next day). It takes less than a minute to clean and that's the end of story. It takes much more longer to clean the lenses, filters (if necessary), etc..

So, no, for me it's not worth...

Comment #4

I have owned a DSLR since about 2002, and I can say that dust is not a major problem. I use the Visible Dust brushes for cleaning and they work very well..

I would not make a decision to buy a camera soley because it had some sensor cleaning mechanism, nor would I reject a camera because it did not. There are far more important factors to consider first..

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'- Rayna Butler..

Comment #5

I haven't touched my DSLRs' insides, let alone blown air into them, for over a year...

Comment #6

BA baracus wrote:.

Http://pixinfo.com/en/articles/ccd-dust-removal/.

To sum it up, someone put dust on the sensor of different sensors andran the dust removal system 25 times. Only Olympus's system workedreasonably well removing 50% of the dust, the rest were 5%-0%..

I wouldn't base a purchasing decision on this feature. $10 for arocket blower... which you'll end up needing anyway because theeffeciency of the anti dust systems are so poor..

Not true at all..

From someone who uses both that brand, a Nikon D50, and an Olympus E300, YES it does make a difference..

Experience: I traveled out to Yellowstone in '06 and took both cameras. Half way through the trip. I developed dust bunnies on both cameras. With the D50, the dust stayed affixated through the rest of the trip. Of courseI didn't realize it until I got home because I couldn't see the dust on the LCD of the camera. Now with the Olympus E300, the dust was on a handful of pics, as the dust shaker activates each Iturn it on or it comes out of sleep mode. Little need to say it was a pain to post-process dustbunnies out of literally HUNDREDS of shots from the D50 as opposed to a few from the E300.shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #7

BA baracus wrote:.

Http://pixinfo.com/en/articles/ccd-dust-removal/.

To sum it up, someone put dust on the sensor of different sensors andran the dust removal system 25 times. Only Olympus's system workedreasonably well removing 50% of the dust, the rest were 5%-0%..

... of the test results. That is, your title is a poor summary..

The simple fact is that sensors don't gather up great gobs of dust at once. They get little bits a little bit at a time. The Olympus system is highly effective at shaking those little bits off before they can accumulate to any degree..

I wouldn't base a purchasing decision on this feature. $10 for arocket blower... which you'll end up needing anyway because theeffeciency of the anti dust systems are so poor..

Nope. I've got no rocket blower and have never cleaned any of my sensors. I've been shooting with 4/3s based cameras for over two years now..

That's not to say the systems are 100% effective. They aren't. Things like sticky pollen bits may not get shaken off. But the Olympus system is highly effective in regular operation as opposed to a crude torture test. Only you can answer how important that is to you. I regularly read threads about all the right ways to clean sensors and the problems that some people have doing it.

I guess you'll have to make your best guess as to whether your the kind of person who will have problems or not..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #8

A Rocket Blower and the occasional cleaning works fine for me. TheOlympus camera seems to have an effective cleaning solution, I'm notsure about the others, but you should Google for what tests there areout there- ISTR the Canon system being worse than not doing it. Ingeneral, you can pretty-much bet that if it's a necessity, it's onthe high-end professional bodies, if it isn't, that's a hint thatit's not all that critical. Sensor cleaning isn't on the high-endbodies yet..

Well, I recently received some images from a well known defense contractor that were taken with a very expensive professional Canon camera. I was shocked at how much dust was all over the images. Really. It looks like the sensor was never cleaned. Of course, my Olympus cameras have never been cleaned either. But there is no visible dust on my images..

If you think you've got a chance of really getting into photography,go with Canon or Nikon- lens rental, equipment availability and bodychoices are easy there. It's not really about image quality though,it's about being able to carry the corner cases as you get moreserious..

I've been "really into" photography since 1975. I've set up many darkrooms (over half a dozen) printing black and white and color and developing my own black and white film. I shoot Olympus bodies and don't see the system as holding me back much if at all..

Define your needs and priorities as honestly as you can, then spend your money. And don't fret to much. It's hard to make a poor choice with today's cameas. They are all quite good..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #9

Tim'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma GandhiE3/E1/7-14/12-60/50-200/EC-14/C8080http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/..

Comment #10

I see threads like this all the time.http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=26990647.

I just did a search on "dust" and told there are over 36,000 results - and that's only one years worth of posting..

I wouldn't avoid buying a camera because it didn't have an anti-dust feature. But I'd certainly let it factor in on a close call..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #11

GodSpeaks wrote:.

I have owned a DSLR since about 2002, and I can say that dust is nota major problem. I use the Visible Dust brushes for cleaning andthey work very well..

Yet you stated this.

"Dust on the sensor is a fact of life, so you need to learn how to clean the sensor yourself. "in this thread:http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=27002345.

I would not make a decision to buy a camera soley because it had somesensor cleaning mechanism, nor would I reject a camera because it didnot. There are far more important factors to consider first..

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselvesinto thinking they have done 'the right thing.'- Rayna Butler.

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #12

This is hilarious, there's two camps; the "Dust-Minimizers" and the "Olympus-Owners", LOL......

I've owned an Olympus dSLR that's used with 5 lenses (often with a dozen changes a day), and has trekked into several deserts, to the top of mountains, through fields of flowers in bloom, and at the end of the day been thrown without a bag into a dusty trunk, and I've NEVER had a speck of dust that's affected an image. A relative bought a Canon dRebel and stuck one lens on it, never took it off, and now she can't use it for her intended purpose because it costs too much to send in to clean.....

It's not the only factor to take into account but it's something to at least think of if you are not particularly manually dexterous, like my relative......

Comment #13

I was out shooting this weekend and unbeknownst to me, there was a spec of dust on my sensor (I rarely turn my camera off, so the anti-dust mechanism rarely kicks in). After a lens change, my lens was not acting right so I shut the camera off and restarted it, which had the effect of activating the anti-dust mechanism. When I got home I saw the dust on all the images I shot before I shut my camera off... but not on a single image I took afterward..

Some cool cats that can use your helphttp://www.wildlife-sanctuary.org.

Even if you can't donate, please help spread the word...

Comment #14

IMac, therefore iAm wrote:.

I was out shooting this weekend and unbeknownst to me, there was aspec of dust on my sensor (I rarely turn my camera off, so theanti-dust mechanism rarely kicks in). After a lens change, my lenswas not acting right so I shut the camera off and restarted it, whichhad the effect of activating the anti-dust mechanism. When I got homeI saw the dust on all the images I shot before I shut my cameraoff... but not on a single image I took afterward..

Some cool cats that can use your helphttp://www.wildlife-sanctuary.org.

Even if you can't donate, please help spread the word..

Just a little tip. If you turn the camera off before changing lenses you will have a lot less if any dust in the first place. The static charge of a sensor that is turined on sucks dust, so turn it off ..

Comment #15

Jay Turberville wrote:.

Well, I recently received some images from a well known defensecontractor that were taken with a very expensive professional Canoncamera. I was shocked at how much dust was all over the images.Really. It looks like the sensor was never cleaned. Of course, myOlympus cameras have never been cleaned either. But there is novisible dust on my images..

There are people who don't pay any attention to detail in their images, that's neither here nor there. I tend to not clean my camera very often at all- I'm still getting images that don't contain visible dust artifacts and my last set of portraits made it to publication just fine, as did my last product shots. An extra 20 seconds when you're cleaning your lenses to do the sensor simply isn't that big a deal for me..

Sure, Olympus has an effective anti-dust system (perhaps the most effective one,) but to me it's simply not that big of a feature- just as having 9 exposure brackets on a D2x wouldn't be if I didn't have one- I generally bracket manually anyway- so it's not a major feature..

If you think you've got a chance of really getting into photography,go with Canon or Nikon- lens rental, equipment availability and bodychoices are easy there. It's not really about image quality though,it's about being able to carry the corner cases as you get moreserious..

I've been "really into" photography since 1975. I've set up manydarkrooms (over half a dozen) printing black and white and color anddeveloping my own black and white film. I shoot Olympus bodies anddon't see the system as holding me back much if at all..

Then your "really into" and my "really into" are different, or I chose the wrong word- perhaps more of the the latter than the former..

If I need to rent a lens locally, it's not a big deal for me with either Canon or Nikon. If I need to rent a lens at the last minute out of town, my options are pretty-much limited to Canon or Nikon. I have yet to find any place other than online that will rent anything other than C/N/Blad and occasionally Mamiya lenses in the US, perhaps that's different in other parts of the world, but I'd bet not..

If I need a 35mm sensor, I can rent a body just as easily as renting a lens, or I can purchase one if I need it regularly- with 4/3rds there's only one sensor size choice- so if I really need to shoot at ISO 12500, but just for a day or a week, it's not a huge issue, my lenses still work, my flashes still talk TTL....

If I need to submit to a stock agency or photo editor who has a list of "approved cameras," then my small-format choices are limited to APS-C or 35mm digital bodies- that may change, it may not but C/N both have bodies on all those lists already..

If I need a tilt/shift lens for architectural photography, I have choices (more in Canon than in Nikon.) If I need other movements, or movements at other focal lengths, I've got the option of the Cambo view camera options for C/N....

Underwater housing choices- more with C/N, Photoblimp for shooting on-set, WIFI for shooting events with immediate processing....

Once again, it's about carrying the corner cases- that's easier with C/N than with any of the third party manufacturers. That doesn't mean you'll always encounter them, or that you can't work around some of them, but the less you have to work around, the easier things become..

I've developed and printed more than my share of B&W and E-6 (Ciba/Ilfochrome) in my own darkroom from 5x7, 4x5, 6x7, 645 and 35mm negatives and positives. That doesn't affect the flexibility of any of the above..

A Ford Explorer is capable of a lot of off-roading, but it won't match the flexibility of a fully articulated suspension on a Jeep Wrangler. If a lot of off-roading might be in my future, and I were looking at vehicles, I'd lean towards the Wrangler unless there were other factors that made the Ford more attractive..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #16

I've NEVER cleaned my E500 sensor, no dust issues so far. (Not sure I'd even know how to clean it!) In all probability, these auto anti dust features are probably not as good as manual cleaning. But so far, my Oly anti-dust features have served me well..

Anyway, since these features don't seem to cost anything extra, I'd say why not get a camera with such features?STOP Global Stasis! Change is good!.

Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos..http://www.photo.net/photos/GlenBarrington..

Comment #17

People say that they never clean their sensors or it only takes a minute or two. However, my experience with a couple of DSLRs from KM and Canon has been that it takes several goes to get rid of all dust using the Copper Hill wet technique. It's hit and miss. You clean and check, then reclean/check as necessary..

My worst expereince was with a Canon 5D I borrowed. I gave up trying to get that sucker clean..

I recently got a Canon 40D with it's sensor shaking cleaner. I've taken enough shots stopped down to f/11 without noticing the effect of dust in the images that dust I'm convinced the self-cleaning is at least partly effective..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #18

In my opinion, the Pixinfo.com dust test was a shambles from the get-go..

They started off with pristine sensors, which is fair enough and makes perfect sense for their "test", but THEN......

 "We locked up the mirrors, and left the cameras laying on their backs for a few minutes. We artificially kept the air dusty.....".

Well, duh! You're gonna get hundreds (thousands?) of airborne dust particles on the sensors doing that. Where's their control group  the same types of cameras having their lens taken off, camera body face downwards, and being immediately replaced (in the same dusty environment) with another lens. As you'd do in the field..

From there onwards, the rest of their test was totally meaningless. ANY backup system or safeguards or cleaners will "fail" if they're ridiculously overloaded beyond their design parameters  and then expected to work with 100% efficiency. Or even 50% efficiency..

Pixinfo seemingly and purposely set their "test" up specifically to fail all the cameras, simply in an attempt to "prove" some bizarre, and illogical, point of view of their editors/writers/testers..

The fact that numerous professional reviewers have OK'd these dust removal systems on dozens of cameras over several years is enough for me. I think Pixinfo may've left the "r" out of their name too?.

Cheers ..

Comment #19

BlackDraken wrote:.

In my opinion, the Pixinfo.com dust test was a shambles from the get-go..

They started off with pristine sensors, which is fair enough andmakes perfect sense for their "test", but THEN......

 "We locked up the mirrors, and left the cameras laying on theirbacks for a few minutes. We artificially kept the air dusty.....".

Well, duh! You're gonna get hundreds (thousands?) of airborne dustparticles on the sensors doing that. Where's their control group the same types of cameras having their lens taken off, camera bodyface downwards, and being immediately replaced (in the same dustyenvironment) with another lens. As you'd do in the field..

From there onwards, the rest of their test was totally meaningless.ANY backup system or safeguards or cleaners will "fail" if they'reridiculously overloaded beyond their design parameters  and thenexpected to work with 100% efficiency. Or even 50% efficiency..

Pixinfo seemingly and purposely set their "test" up specifically tofail all the cameras, simply in an attempt to "prove" some bizarre,and illogical, point of view of their editors/writers/testers..

The fact that numerous professional reviewers have OK'd these dustremoval systems on dozens of cameras over several years is enough forme. I think Pixinfo may've left the "r" out of their name too?.

Don't hold back. What do you really think about their effort? LOL.

I haven't read their test, and it may be possible that under more appropriate testing conditions the Oly system would be shown to be way better than those from other brands. However, it's unfortunate as I'm sure you would agree that the results don't mean as much as they should for real world usage of camera sensor shake cleaning systems..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #20

I've been "really into" photography since 1975. I've set up manydarkrooms (over half a dozen) printing black and white and color anddeveloping my own black and white film. I shoot Olympus bodies anddon't see the system as holding me back much if at all..

Then your "really into" and my "really into" are different, or Ichose the wrong word- perhaps more of the the latter than the former..

Well from what you said later on in this post, you seem to equate "really into" to doing photography professionally. So yes, I'd say that you chose the wrong words. If you mean professional use, then say so..

If I need to rent a lens locally, it's not a big deal for me witheither Canon or Nikon. If I need to rent a lens at the last minuteout of town, my options are pretty-much limited to Canon or Nikon. Ihave yet to find any place other than online that will rent anythingother than C/N/Blad and occasionally Mamiya lenses in the US, perhapsthat's different in other parts of the world, but I'd bet not..

No. I think you are correct..

If I need a 35mm sensor, I can rent a body just as easily as rentinga lens, or I can purchase one if I need it regularly-.

So now we are renting a camera and a lens? Well I can do that too. So what?.

With 4/3rdsthere's only one sensor size choice-.

With APS-C you have the choice of a larger lense selection - most of which will work across two different (three with Canon) formats. Of course, the lenses have different capabilities as you change formats..

So if I really need to shoot atISO 12500, but just for a day or a week, it's not a huge issue, mylenses still work, my flashes still talk TTL....

Well, if you are shooting ISO 12500, you probably aren't using a flash. And renting equipment isn't a huge issue for anyone (assuming they have the money. If someone shooting 4/3s needs a 135 format digital SLR, they can rent one too. the difference is that they'll need to rent some lenses as well. I just checked the rates at a local shop that rents lenses and cameras, and lens rental is quite inexpensive..

If I need to submit to a stock agency or photo editor who has a listof "approved cameras," then my small-format choices are limited toAPS-C or 35mm digital bodies- that may change, it may not but C/Nboth have bodies on all those lists already..

True. If your intention is to shoot professionally, then things certainly change. But if that's the case, you probably don't ask a question about camera choice in the "Beginners Questions" forum. You seem to have rather lost your way with the context of the question..

If I need a tilt/shift lens for architectural photography, I havechoices (more in Canon than in Nikon.).

I can rent a Canon 24mm f/3.5 L Tilt-Shift lens for between $25 a day and $75 a week. If I had an APS-C Canon camera, I'd probably not want to use that body because it makes the 24mm lens deliver an FoV that is pretty close to "normal." So I've got to rent a 135 format digital anyway. So the net savings to me for a beginner who is planning ahead for possibly shooting professionally is between $25 and $75. Sorry. That doesn't seem to factor in as being very significant to me..

Underwater housing choices- more with C/N, Photoblimp for shootingon-set, WIFI for shooting events with immediate processing....

Sure. All things that certain kinds of professional photography can use (BTW, there are some nifty underwater options for Olympus), but again, the relevance?.

A Ford Explorer is capable of a lot of off-roading, but it won'tmatch the flexibility of a fully articulated suspension on a JeepWrangler. If a lot of off-roading might be in my future, and I werelooking at vehicles, I'd lean towards the Wrangler unless there wereother factors that made the Ford more attractive..

Yes. And for many areas of professional photography, I too would be looking at a Canon or Nikon system. For some, such as nature photography, I'm not so sure. But once again, the "serious" doesn't mean professional and a beginner probably has little idea of whether he'll be "serious, " much less become a professional with certain specific needs. The points you raise are seldom pertinent to anybody except a professional - and a professional or aspiring professional should already be aware of those issues and probably wouldn't be seeking guidance in this forum..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #21

Jay Turberville wrote:.

I've been "really into" photography since 1975. I've set up manydarkrooms (over half a dozen) printing black and white and color anddeveloping my own black and white film. I shoot Olympus bodies anddon't see the system as holding me back much if at all..

Then your "really into" and my "really into" are different, or Ichose the wrong word- perhaps more of the the latter than the former..

Well from what you said later on in this post, you seem to equate"really into" to doing photography professionally. So yes, I'd saythat you chose the wrong words. If you mean professional use, thensay so..

Precisely. Those considering going Pro aren't going to post in the 'Beginners Forum". That's WHY it's called such..

If I need to rent a lens locally, it's not a big deal for me witheither Canon or Nikon. If I need to rent a lens at the last minuteout of town, my options are pretty-much limited to Canon or Nikon. Ihave yet to find any place other than online that will rent anythingother than C/N/Blad and occasionally Mamiya lenses in the US, perhapsthat's different in other parts of the world, but I'd bet not..

No. I think you are correct..

If I need a 35mm sensor, I can rent a body just as easily as rentinga lens, or I can purchase one if I need it regularly-.

So now we are renting a camera and a lens? Well I can do that too.So what?.

With 4/3rdsthere's only one sensor size choice-.

With APS-C you have the choice of a larger lense selection - most ofwhich will work across two different (three with Canon) formats. Ofcourse, the lenses have different capabilities as you change formats..

So if I really need to shoot atISO 12500, but just for a day or a week, it's not a huge issue, mylenses still work, my flashes still talk TTL....

Well, if you are shooting ISO 12500, you probably aren't using aflash. And renting equipment isn't a huge issue for anyone (assumingthey have the money. If someone shooting 4/3s needs a 135 formatdigital SLR, they can rent one too. the difference is that they'llneed to rent some lenses as well. I just checked the rates at alocal shop that rents lenses and cameras, and lens rental is quiteinexpensive..

My question is: how many cameras can you effectively shoot at ISO 12500? 2, maybe 3?.

If I need to submit to a stock agency or photo editor who has a listof "approved cameras," then my small-format choices are limited toAPS-C or 35mm digital bodies- that may change, it may not but C/Nboth have bodies on all those lists already..

Again, as I asked Paul, Where is it this EXPLICITLY stated? He mentioned Getty Images only. Proof is in the puddin'. And what about other stock agencies???.

True. If your intention is to shoot professionally, then thingscertainly change. But if that's the case, you probably don't ask aquestion about camera choice in the "Beginners Questions" forum. Youseem to have rather lost your way with the context of the question..

If I need a tilt/shift lens for architectural photography, I havechoices (more in Canon than in Nikon.).

I can rent a Canon 24mm f/3.5 L Tilt-Shift lens for between $25 a dayand $75 a week. If I had an APS-C Canon camera, I'd probably notwant to use that body because it makes the 24mm lens deliver an FoVthat is pretty close to "normal." So I've got to rent a 135 formatdigital anyway. So the net savings to me for a beginner who isplanning ahead for possibly shooting professionally is between $25and $75. Sorry. That doesn't seem to factor in as being verysignificant to me..

Precisely..

Underwater housing choices- more with C/N, Photoblimp for shootingon-set, WIFI for shooting events with immediate processing....

Sure. All things that certain kinds of professional photography canuse (BTW, there are some nifty underwater options for Olympus), butagain, the relevance?.

A Ford Explorer is capable of a lot of off-roading, but it won'tmatch the flexibility of a fully articulated suspension on a JeepWrangler. If a lot of off-roading might be in my future, and I werelooking at vehicles, I'd lean towards the Wrangler unless there wereother factors that made the Ford more attractive..

Yes. And for many areas of professional photography, I too would belooking at a Canon or Nikon system. For some, such as naturephotography, I'm not so sure. But once again, the "serious" doesn'tmean professional and a beginner probably has little idea of whetherhe'll be "serious, " much less become a professional with certainspecific needs. The points you raise are seldom pertinent to anybodyexcept a professional - and a professional or aspiring professionalshould already be aware of those issues and probably wouldn't beseeking guidance in this forum..

Well said..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com.

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #22

Shinndigg wrote:.

Precisely. Those considering going Pro aren't going to post in the'Beginners Forum". That's WHY it's called such..

Duh, which is why I specifically said that it's only a factor if you're going to get seriously into photography. Even a beginner is buying a system, limiting downstream flexibility can cost more in the long run..

My question is: how many cameras can you effectively shoot at ISO12500? 2, maybe 3?.

Again, it's about options, not necessarily one or two choices, let's say it's ISO 4800, things open wider- in my book more options are normally better than fewer options..

If I need to submit to a stock agency or photo editor who has a listof "approved cameras," then my small-format choices are limited toAPS-C or 35mm digital bodies- that may change, it may not but C/Nboth have bodies on all those lists already..

Again, as I asked Paul, Where is it this EXPLICITLY stated? Hementioned Getty Images only. Proof is in the puddin'. And what aboutother stock agencies???.

There's at least one agency in All Canada is the other one I immediately remember and you'll run into photo editors who have lists here and there- mostly it lets them screen out large numbers of submissions that they don't want to wade through..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #23

Paul Robertson wrote:.

There's at least one agency in All Canada is the other one Iimmediately remember and you'll run into photo editors who havelists here and there- mostly it lets them screen out large numbers ofsubmissions that they don't want to wade through..

Again, Paul, care to provide PROOF to your statements? Or should one just take YOUR word for it?.

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com.

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #24

...here is one of a number of pros who has made a switch of is considering a switsh to Olympus.http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27072688shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #25

Jay Turberville wrote:.

I've been "really into" photography since 1975. I've set up manydarkrooms (over half a dozen) printing black and white and color anddeveloping my own black and white film. I shoot Olympus bodies anddon't see the system as holding me back much if at all..

True. If your intention is to shoot professionally, then thingscertainly change. But if that's the case, you probably don't ask aquestion about camera choice in the "Beginners Questions" forum. Youseem to have rather lost your way with the context of the question..

No, as a beginner this is where you choose a system, as I said if the OP may get seriously into photography they'll likely be better-served with more flexible systems..

If I need a tilt/shift lens for architectural photography, I havechoices (more in Canon than in Nikon.).

I can rent a Canon 24mm f/3.5 L Tilt-Shift lens for between $25 a dayand $75 a week. If I had an APS-C Canon camera, I'd probably notwant to use that body because it makes the 24mm lens deliver an FoVthat is pretty close to "normal." So I've got to rent a 135 formatdigital anyway. So the net savings to me for a beginner who isplanning ahead for possibly shooting professionally is between $25and $75. Sorry. That doesn't seem to factor in as being verysignificant to me..

Ah, but once again you're ignoring the point- if you decide that architectural photography is your new part-time passion, career, or whatever now suddenly if you're shooting small format, not going Canon means you're going to have to acquire a new system. This is true not only of the example I give, but of many other niches..

Underwater housing choices- more with C/N, Photoblimp for shootingon-set, WIFI for shooting events with immediate processing....

Sure. All things that certain kinds of professional photography canuse (BTW, there are some nifty underwater options for Olympus), butagain, the relevance?.

Again, the relevance is keeping options open if you think you might get serious in the future..

Specific needs. The points you raise are seldom pertinent to anybodyexcept a professional - and a professional or aspiring professionalshould already be aware of those issues and probably wouldn't beseeking guidance in this forum..

Every professional starts as a beginner, and again, I know many photographers who are amateurs who have corner-case needs because they're doing some particular corner-case photography as their main creative release..

As I've said- if you're just taking snapshots, or if you're just going to take casual pictures, there's really no wrong answer- there's not enough difference in the entry-level dSLR cameras to make any choice bad- especially if you don't print often..

But if you might get serious, then flexibility is a big factor..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #26

True. If your intention is to shoot professionally, then thingscertainly change. But if that's the case, you probably don't ask aquestion about camera choice in the "Beginners Questions" forum. Youseem to have rather lost your way with the context of the question..

No, as a beginner this is where you choose a system, as I said if theOP may get seriously into photography they'll likely be better-servedwith more flexible systems..

Beginner systems aren't very expensive. Someone deciding to become professional later in life can be well served by any of the systems and the cost of changing from a beginning system is peanuts compared to the cost of the new gear that would be used professionally. The time to get concerned about whether your system is the right one to start a professional career is about the time when you start thinking about spending thousands of dollars..

If I need a tilt/shift lens for architectural photography, I havechoices (more in Canon than in Nikon.).

I can rent a Canon 24mm f/3.5 L Tilt-Shift lens for between $25 a dayand $75 a week. If I had an APS-C Canon camera, I'd probably notwant to use that body because it makes the 24mm lens deliver an FoVthat is pretty close to "normal." So I've got to rent a 135 formatdigital anyway. So the net savings to me for a beginner who isplanning ahead for possibly shooting professionally is between $25and $75. Sorry. That doesn't seem to factor in as being verysignificant to me..

Ah, but once again you're ignoring the point.

No. I'm responding to your point about rental flexibility..

If you decide thatarchitectural photography is your new part-time passion, career, orwhatever now suddenly if you're shooting small format, not goingCanon means you're going to have to acquire a new system. This istrue not only of the example I give, but of many other niches..

OK, so a new scenario. Fine. If I decide that this is my new part-time passion, I've got to sink a minimum of about $3500 into new gear (Canon 5D and lens) either way. Whether or not I started with an $800 dollar Canon, Olympus, Pentax, Sony or Nikon system has essentially no impact on that. If I went with Canon in both cases, my advantages are that I can put the tilt lens on the smaller format Canon? Well big deal. Further, we don't know what the future holds for any of the other brands for further development of gear for architectural needs.

It is a very minor consideration..

If you don't know where you are headed, you really can't effectively plan your initial camera purchase. If you do know, then that defines your needs and hence what you might purchase. Most people have no idea if their first camera will head them into a lifelong interest in photography or not, and if it does, they probably have even less of a clue what specific area of interest the will find themselves in..

Again, the relevance is keeping options open if you think you mightget serious in the future..

You don't lose the ability to buy a different brand of camera when you make your first camera purchase. Putting much emphasis on unknown possible future needs seems like folly to me. I'd put more weight on how the camera I'm considering feels in my hand than that. If someone needs specific pro gear down the line, it's going to cost the a lot compared to their entry level DSLR anyway..

Specific needs. The points you raise are seldom pertinent to anybodyexcept a professional - and a professional or aspiring professionalshould already be aware of those issues and probably wouldn't beseeking guidance in this forum..

Every professional starts as a beginner.

And the vast majority of beginners never even get "seirous" much less go professional. So the consideration of pro features available at some distant future is largely pointless if you don't have some significant inclination toward "getting serious" from the start..

, and again, I know manyphotographers who are amateurs who have corner-case needs becausethey're doing some particular corner-case photography as their maincreative release..

Right. Those are the folks who I would refer to as "getting serious" about photography. These are the folks that are in the biggest quandry. They typically must support their photography with funds from non-photography sources. These people might look for alternative solutions rather than spending thousands of dollars. In the instance of arcitectural photography, a pano head, lens distortion correction software and stitching trades money for time and would probably give excellent results.

It's a different format beginners camera after all..

As I've said- if you're just taking snapshots, or if you're justgoing to take casual pictures, there's really no wrong answer-there's not enough difference in the entry-level dSLR cameras to makeany choice bad- especially if you don't print often..

But if you might get serious, then flexibility is a big factor..

And that's our main point of disagreement. It isn't much of a factor at all until and unless you get serious about some specialized aspect of photography that the smaller format doesn't support as well. And even then, it isn't a big factor. The big factor is going to be the cost of the new gear - which will dwarf the money spent on your initial kit..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #27

...here is one of a number of pros who has made a switch of isconsidering a switsh to Olympus.http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27072688.

That's the problem. You really can't make known good decisions about future needs. You just don't know the future well enough. Here is a guy who is moving from medium format to the smallest interchangable lens DSLR format. People probably don't know their future needs and even if they did, they probably don't know how future technology will develop anyway..

Jay Turbervillehttp://www.jayandwanda.com..

Comment #28

John down under wrote:.

Don't hold back. What do you really think about their effort? LOL.

I must admit I DID have to bite my tongue John, haha!.

Seriously, I was just making the point that we shouldn't rely on those sorts of silly "tests" in making our decisions about the pros or cons of sensor dust control/cleaning  or anything else technically-speaking for that matter..

Some people may read that Pixinfo "test" and take it seriously (and let it adversely affect their buying decision)..

Cheers ..

Comment #29

BlackDraken wrote:.

John down under wrote:.

Don't hold back. What do you really think about their effort? LOL.

I must admit I DID have to bite my tongue John, haha!.

Seriously, I was just making the point that we shouldn't rely onthose sorts of silly "tests" in making our decisions about the prosor cons of sensor dust control/cleaning  or anything elsetechnically-speaking for that matter..

Some people may read that Pixinfo "test" and take it seriously (andlet it adversely affect their buying decision)..

Cheers .

It can be tough to figure out what's valid and what's not, but that dusty sensor test wasn't so hard to figure out..

Luckily there's always good old Ken Rockwell to fall back on, provided you have a sense of humour. ;^).

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #30

Jay Turberville wrote:.

Beginner systems aren't very expensive. Someone deciding to becomeprofessional later in life can be well served by any of the systemsand the cost of changing from a beginning system is peanuts comparedto the cost of the new gear that would be used professionally. The.

It's still a cost. It's not like most folks switch to making money overnight either- and having bought into a system gives you things like flashes, as well as back-up bodies and lenses..

Time to get concerned about whether your system is the right one tostart a professional career is about the time when you start thinkingabout spending thousands of dollars..

If you don't mind ignoring hundreds to thousands of dollars of current investment sure, but that's not the best way to enter a business..

I can rent a Canon 24mm f/3.5 L Tilt-Shift lens for between $25 a dayand $75 a week. If I had an APS-C Canon camera, I'd probably notwant to use that body because it makes the 24mm lens deliver an FoVthat is pretty close to "normal." So I've got to rent a 135 format.

A normal field of view may be preferable- you're jumping to an assumption that's not always true. Even so, if you had to do that 10 times, that's $750, no longer an insignificant sum. You just paid for your beginning kit..

OK, so a new scenario. Fine. If I decide that this is my newpart-time passion, I've got to sink a minimum of about $3500 into newgear (Canon 5D and lens) either way. Whether or not I started with.

You can get perfectly acceptable shots from an APS-C or APS-H sensor..

You also seem to be assuming that someone goes right from their kit body/lens to purchasing pro gear. That's certainly not the norm. Over time additional purchases add up, as does experience with that gear, such as lens performance in certain lighting conditions, or flash behavior with certain modifiers..

What you're effectively saying is that if you might get serious, you're as well off ditching your all your system-specific gear and experience with that gear- and I disagree..

Your needs and hence what you might purchase. Most people have noidea if their first camera will head them into a lifelong interest inphotography or not, and if it does, they probably have even less of aclue what specific area of interest the will find themselves in..

First, dSLRs are often not the first camera purchase, but a step up from a P&S, and again, with Canon or Nikon, you've basically got a bigger chance of getting it right..

You don't lose the ability to buy a different brand of camera whenyou make your first camera purchase. Putting much emphasis onunknown possible future needs seems like folly to me. I'd put moreweight on how the camera I'm considering feels in my hand than that..

Today's digital body sees 3-5 years of use. Today's lenses and flashes see at least twice that. While ergonomics may win a coin toss between similar systems, you can pretty-much state that the next camera any manufacturer makes isn't going to be the same as today's. You're not just buying a camera, you're buying a camera system..

If someone needs specific pro gear down the line, it's going to costthe a lot compared to their entry level DSLR anyway..

But the incremental costs while they're growing are much more significant..

The other fact is that you can get a paying shot just fine with any of the currently new dSLR bodies and most of the good lenses, so rather than paying $1600-7000 for a new pro body, you can just get a new pro lens..

(cont. in next post)http://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #31

Every professional starts as a beginner.

And the vast majority of beginners never even get "seirous" much less.

Which is, of course why I added the caveat about if the OP thought they might do so. But again, there's no significant downside to getting an XTi or D40- so you can be a snapshooter just fine with the C/N beginner kit..

Go professional. So the consideration of pro features available atsome distant future is largely pointless if you don't have somesignificant inclination toward "getting serious" from the start..

Except your predicate is that there's some significant disadvantage to not choosing your brand-of-choice, and let's face it both Canon and Nikon's entry-level dSLRs are outselling Olympus's entire line individually- if they were at that much of a disadvantage, even marketing couldn't overcome it..

From non-photography sources. These people might look foralternative solutions rather than spending thousands of dollars. Inthe instance of arcitectural photography, a pano head, lensdistortion correction software and stitching trades money for timeand would probably give excellent results. But even if the.

Priced pano heads? Software stitching isn't preferable to getting it right in camera- depending on the shot, it can be a big issue (like for some interiors.) Also, a pano head won't help with keystoning. A pano head is a substitute for field of view, not perspective control. In any case, my proposed solution doesn't force them to the alternative, it gives them that option as well..

Enthusiast wants to use the standard pro solution, their originalsmaller format solution doesn't get very much leverage by being inthe same system. It's a different format beginners camera after all..

You're assuming that an APS-C camera can't be used professionally- which isn't true. You're also assuming that you're either going to have to fund twice as many bodies or have no back-up, which is a serious negative for most people bridging the pro/am gap..

Even then, it isn't a big factor. The big factor is going to be thecost of the new gear - which will dwarf the money spent on yourinitial kit..

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Since I've been down this road, I can say that I've used probably $3-4000 of equipment (lenses & flashes) that were part of my growing system that weren't purchased to make sales..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #32

Paul Robertson wrote:.

Except your predicate is that there's some significant disadvantageto not choosing your brand-of-choice, and let's face it both Canonand Nikon's entry-level dSLRs are outselling Olympus's entire lineindividually- if they were at that much of a disadvantage, evenmarketing couldn't overcome it..

1. Do you have numbers to back this up ?2. some people value a fancy brand name higher than actual performance...

Comment #33

Avaron wrote:.

Paul Robertson wrote:.

Except your predicate is that there's some significant disadvantageto not choosing your brand-of-choice, and let's face it both Canonand Nikon's entry-level dSLRs are outselling Olympus's entire lineindividually- if they were at that much of a disadvantage, evenmarketing couldn't overcome it..

1. Do you have numbers to back this up ? .

Olympus has somewhere around 5%-6% of the global dSLR market, Canon and Nikon have 35-45% each. That means they simply need 15%-20% of their dSLR sales in entry-level bodies for this statement to be true..

The difference isn't even close- even if Olympus was to double it's market share, it'd still take Sony and Pentax increasing share to even start to make it a race. Since Nikon's share reportedly increased in 2007, that's just not going to happen..

I doubt we'll have good 07 share numbers until June after all the fiscal years close, but really it's not even close to a race..

Paulhttp://PaulDRobertson.imagekind.com..

Comment #34

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