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A Raw question
I shoot jpg for a long time, and just start shooting raw using my Nikon D80. when I open the same images of JPG and RAW, I found out the RAW image had more noise, less contrast, less saturation, even the hue seems different!! It just look different with JPG..

Is it what RAW truly is before any retouching? Or it is just because I did some wrong?..

Comments (26)

Wondchoi wrote:.

I shoot jpg for a long time, and just start shooting raw using myNikon D80. when I open the same images of JPG and RAW, I found outthe RAW image had more noise, less contrast, less saturation, eventhe hue seems different!! It just look different with JPG.Is it what RAW truly is before any retouching? Or it is just becauseI did some wrong?.

What you see is pretty normal..

When you shoot jpeg, your camera does a lot of processing, like removing noise..

With RAW, you have to do that, in the RAW converter. So you decide how much noise reduction to have, or change the white balance, saturation etc. to get the image just right before you convert it to jpeg or another format..

Sounds like you need to become familiar with the RAW software you have..

Androohttp://Androo.smugmug.com..

Comment #1

This actually depends on the raw converter..

For example: I use a Nikon D1H camera. When I shoot raw, I use Nikon Capture 4/picture project to PP. Nikon software actually "honors" or recognizes the in-camera setting..

I believe other raw converters do not do this..

Hope this helps..

Respects,.

Doni.

...in matters of grave importance, style not sincerity is the vital thing - Oscar Wilde..

Comment #2

You need to tell the RAW converter what settings to use for WB, exposure, brightness, contrast, colour saturation, noise reduction, etc, etc. The JPEG in your camera has already had a bunch of processing applied to create that JPEG image from the RAW data in your camera. Some people take pride in doing 'neutral' processing. I guess they mean they leave all the RAW sliders set to 0, which is nuts. You get way better images by adjusting things to your taste. YOu should be able to set up some defaults processing values that then act as a starting point for you to further tweak your RAW images one by one or as a group, depending on how your RAW software works..

For my Canon DSLR RAW files, I use Lightroom, which has the same RAW engine as Adobe Camera RAW. The default settings before I even set anything were not all 0, but included things like brightness 50 and contrast 25..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #3

RAw is simply the information as received by the camera sensor. JPEG is the same information but processed according to the in-camera settings (contrast/saturation etc) you have..

With Raw you can dd whatever you like in respect of post processing (e.g contrast/ saturation). With Jpeg you have to 'remove or modify' the additional 'processing' (if required) from you camera before you can modify as required..

If you need to post process, Raw is the easier way to go for your source image as it has no 'artifacts' from the in-camera processing...

Comment #4

Wondchoi wrote:.

The RAW image had more noise, less contrast, less saturation, eventhe hue seems different!! It just look different with JPG..

Is it what RAW truly is before any retouching?.

A Raw file is not an image. It's just a pile of sensor data..

It's up to software to interpret the sensor data and produce an image, and there are an uncountable number of different ways to do that. Each Raw conversion program has it's own way, and each gives different results from the others (your camera's built-in JPEG conversion included)..

When you're processing a Raw file, the controls are used to tell the Raw converter how you want the data to be converted into an image. The image that you see on the screen is just a preview of how the image would come out with the current control settings..

Accordingly, what you see when you first bring a Raw file into a Raw converter program is how the image would come out at whatever the initial control settings for that Raw converter happen to be. Different Raw converters have very different ways of dealing with the initial control settings...

Comment #5

As the Nikon one then- it recognizes your in-camera JPG settings when you auto-convert...

Comment #6

I thought the following information may help you understand why your initial display of the RAW data looks different than the jpg display..

Understanding Digital RAW.

Press the Shutter Release in your camera, What Happens?.

1) Light strikes the CCD.

Light strikes the CCD when the shutter release is pressed. Raw data is produced by the CCD. (This CCD takes the place of film in the old film cameras)This RAW data from the CCD is not yet stored..

2) A RAW data file is produced:.

If the Camera if set to RAW, then a raw data file is produced and stored in the camera on the memory card. This file may contain the camera settings (ie: White Balance, Sharpening, Color Mode, Saturation, etc.) but these parameter settings have not been applied to the raw data file. They are stored in the file for reference only and called Metadata. Changing these camera settings will not affect the raw data in the file. The amount of light falling on the sensor will change the raw data and therefore the shutter speed, aperture, ISO and lens filters will effect the raw data. This raw data file is a proprietary file type which is different for different manufacturers.



Jpg file produced in camera:.

If the Camera is set to jpg, then the computer in the camera uses the camera settings, of White Balance, Sharpening, Color Mode, Saturation, etc. to produce a jpg file on the fly, from the raw data. This takes place right when the shutter release is pressed. The camera has it's own RAW data conversion program, just not as versatile as the programs discussed in the next paragraph, below. Once the jpg file is produced in the camera, changing any in camera settings will only affect new pictures taken. The conversion from RAW to jpg can not be redone, as it can with the raw conversion programs discussed below..

3) Transfer the RAW file to computer for processing:.

Once the raw data file is transferred into your computer you can perform post processing (PP) of the RAW data and then save it into another format (tiff, jpg, etc), by using Nikon Capture NX (CNX) or Adobe Camera Raw (ACR), or any other raw conversion program. The conversion parameters you use in these programs can be changed and the conversion of the raw data performed as many times as you like. The raw file is not changed. Only the processing parameters are changed and saved. The initial set of conversion parameters are called the default set, and affect your initial screen preview of the image. You can use the same initial parameters that were set in the camera (or close to it) if you like, but then you end up with the same jpg file that the camera would have produced..

(wondchoi : this is where the difference is).

These programs instead, offer many more complex parameter changes and adjustments that are not available in the camera. The repeated processing ability and extensive parameter changes are only two of the advantages of these raw conversion programs like CNX and ACR..

Transfer jpg file to computer for editing and processing..

If you selected a jpg file in camera, then you will transfer this jpg file to your computer for editing, not for RAW data processing which has already been done in the camera. You will use editing/organizational programs such as Photoshop (PS) , Lightroom (LR), Bridge, (Capture NX also has some editing ability), etc. Each of these programs offers a different set of features and objectives. Some are more editing oriented, others more organizational, and some overlap in features. Some of these programs also accept files directly from the raw conversion programs. But these programs are not to be confused with the raw conversion programs themselves.



(Note: as stated some programs like Capture NX may do both RAW conversion and some other editing features.).

Some advantages in using raw data files.

1) RAW data is normally in 10 or 12 bit depth, where the converted jpeg file in the camera is 8bit..

2) Raw conversion programs offer many more and more detailed complex adjustments, than available in the camera RAW conversion programs..

3) Conversions which can be applied to RAW data, can not be applied as successfully to RGB data files such as Tiff, jpeg, etc. You have more control over raw data resulting in better processing results..

4) Raw data conversion parameters can be changed and then applied again to the same raw data. If we are not satisfied with our results, we can just tweak the parameters and convert once again..

5) The raw data in RAW data files is not altered. The conversion parameters are being changed and stored with the file (or in an associated file), but the raw data is left unchanged..

Some disadvantages in using raw data files.

1) Raw data files are 2-6 times larger than the corresponding jpeg files..

2) Post processing takes some extra time. How much really depends on your demands and criteria. Most raw conversion programs offer batch processing to speed things up when applying the same conversion parameters to multiple images..

SeeThom's Quick & Dirty Guide to RAWhttp://www.bythom.com/qadraw.htm.

See alsoThe Advantages and Disadvantages Explained.

Http://www.popphoto.com/...aw-the-advantages-and-disadvantages-explained.html.

SeeUnderstanding Digital RAW).

Wondchoi wrote:.

I shoot jpg for a long time, and just start shooting raw using myNikon D80. when I open the same images of JPG and RAW, I found outthe RAW image had more noise, less contrast, less saturation, eventhe hue seems different!! It just look different with JPG..

Is it what RAW truly is before any retouching? Or it is just becauseI did some wrong?..

Comment #7

You are actually describing the advantages of RAW..

With RAW you AVOID the camera imposing it's own idea of what processing is to be done and instead control it yourself..

Many RAW converters let you define templates and/or have batch processing modes to allow you to "quickly" convert a whole set of RAWs with the same settings. This lets you get a quick set of proofs and work out which ( if any ) of the set to process in more detail ( by hand )..

There are no absolutes in processing a RAW file..

Some people do noise reduction at the start, some at the end. I tried both and think it makes no differences, but it is such a major step I generally leave it until last. A major advantage of RAW is that you can bypass in-camera noise reduction, which is often not very sophisticated..

One thing to watch out for in RAW conversion is white balance. This is, I think, what you mean by "Hue" being wrong. You need to select white balance yourself in many cases. Again RAW makes this better and more accurate than trying to correct a JPEG..

I usually advise people to avoid using "contrast" and "brightness" sliders. These are poor controls compared to learning to manipulate a tone curve..

Saturation is typically added to images in out-of-camera JPEGs and people have become accustomed to seeing what are really over-saturated images from a camera. RAW does not have any saturation boost ( of course ) so you can select this to your own taste..

As it is an oft asked question I will say that you cannot alter a RAW file. You save to a 16-bit TIFF, 8-bit TIFF or 8-bit JPEG, but you cannot save to the RAW file. When archiving keep the RAW files and the final results, dump the rest. You should only need a 16-bit TIFF if you need to keep a temporary copy of a file you have not finished working on. 16-bit TIFFs are huge - don't keep them longer than you have to..

Lastly some RAW converters let you save the processing steps in a separate file ( RawTherapee does this for example ). This is a small text file and saves you having to save a full sized image..

StephenG.

Pentax K100DFuji S5200Fuji E900PCLinuxOS..

Comment #8

Thank you so much, Ed Grenzig, and sjgcit, for your very clear and detail explaining the process and difference..

I have done some research of processing the RAW. and again, I have some more questions for you. by the way, I am using photoshop cs2 for pp my RAW and Jpg.

Some articles suggest that we should adjust the exposure, temperature and tint in Camera Raw of photoshop CS2, and then open do the Black and White Points, contrast, saturation, noise reduction, sharpening in photoshop, not in Camera Raw. But I did notice that in Camera Raw, there are some options for you to adjust the contrast, saturation, sharping and etc. So, my question is: are there any differences to do the contrast and saturation and etc. between Camera Raw and photoshop?? I did do some tries, and I feel it seems a little bit easier and faster to use Camera Raw to do most of the pp. Are there any disadvantages to do most of the pp in Camera Raw??.

For you reference, here is the link of one of the articles:http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/workflow_basic/workflow_basic.htm.

Thank you so much, again!!..

Comment #9

A Raw file is not an image. It's just a pile of sensor data..

By reading many articles online, I really get this idea now. Thanks!!..

Comment #10

John down under wrote:.

You need to tell the RAW converter what settings to use for WB,exposure, brightness, contrast, colour saturation, noise reduction,etc, etc. The JPEG in your camera has already had a bunch ofprocessing applied to create that JPEG image from the RAW data inyour camera. Some people take pride in doing 'neutral' processing.I guess they mean they leave all the RAW sliders set to 0, which isnuts. You get way better images by adjusting things to your taste.YOu should be able to set up some defaults processing values thatthen act as a starting point for you to further tweak your RAW imagesone by one or as a group, depending on how your RAW software works..

For my Canon DSLR RAW files, I use Lightroom, which has the same RAWengine as Adobe Camera RAW. The default settings before I even setanything were not all 0, but included things like brightness 50 andcontrast 25..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10.

Thanks! do you mean doing all the WB,exposure, brightness, contrast, colour saturation, noise reduction, etc, etc. in Camera Raw, or most of them, instead of doing most of them in Photoshop?..

Comment #11

Wondchoi wrote:.

John down under wrote:.

You need to tell the RAW converter what settings to use for WB,exposure, brightness, contrast, colour saturation, noise reduction,etc, etc. The JPEG in your camera has already had a bunch ofprocessing applied to create that JPEG image from the RAW data inyour camera. Some people take pride in doing 'neutral' processing.I guess they mean they leave all the RAW sliders set to 0, which isnuts. You get way better images by adjusting things to your taste.YOu should be able to set up some defaults processing values thatthen act as a starting point for you to further tweak your RAW imagesone by one or as a group, depending on how your RAW software works..

For my Canon DSLR RAW files, I use Lightroom, which has the same RAWengine as Adobe Camera RAW. The default settings before I even setanything were not all 0, but included things like brightness 50 andcontrast 25..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10.

Thanks! do you mean doing all the WB,exposure, brightness, contrast,colour saturation, noise reduction, etc, etc. in Camera Raw, or mostof them, instead of doing most of them in Photoshop?.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Only do things in Photoshop that you can't do in ACR. It's better to work on RAW data before converting to work in Photoshop..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #12

Wondchoi wrote:.

Thank you so much, Ed Grenzig, and sjgcit, for your very clear anddetail explaining the process and difference..

I have done some research of processing the RAW. and again, I havesome more questions for you. by the way, I am using photoshop cs2 forpp my RAW and Jpg.

Some articles suggest that we should adjust the exposure, temperatureand tint in Camera Raw of photoshop CS2, and then open do the Blackand White Points, contrast, saturation, noise reduction, sharpeningin photoshop, not in Camera Raw. But I did notice that in Camera Raw,there are some options for you to adjust the contrast, saturation,sharping and etc. So, my question is: are there any differences to dothe contrast and saturation and etc. between Camera Raw andphotoshop?? I did do some tries, and I feel it seems a little biteasier and faster to use Camera Raw to do most of the pp. Are thereany disadvantages to do most of the pp in Camera Raw??.

No disadvantage that I know of. Ron doesn't explain why he only does WB and exposure in ACR, then the rest in Photoshop. I think it's better to do all that you can in ACR so that you're working on RAW data, then you can still make other adjustments in Photoshop later, if you even need to. Sharpening is the exception for me as I pretty much only do that at final output size..

For you reference, here is the link of one of the articles:http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/workflow_basic/workflow_basic.htm.

Thank you so much, again!!.

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #13

Wondchoi wrote:.

Thank you so much, Ed Grenzig, and sjgcit, for your very clear anddetail explaining the process and difference..

I have done some research of processing the RAW. and again, I havesome more questions for you. by the way, I am using photoshop cs2 forpp my RAW and Jpg.

Some articles suggest that we should adjust the exposure, temperatureand tint in Camera Raw of photoshop CS2, and then open do the Blackand White Points, contrast, saturation, noise reduction, sharpeningin photoshop, not in Camera Raw. But I did notice that in Camera Raw,there are some options for you to adjust the contrast, saturation,sharping and etc. So, my question is: are there any differences to dothe contrast and saturation and etc. between Camera Raw andphotoshop??.

I have had the same question myself, but extended it to more image formats..

It would be nice to have a list of which PP changes are most effective on what image formats (RGB, CMYK, RAW, Lab, etc). Then which programs work the best on which image formats. One of these days I will find the information and post it. Untill then, it's trial and error!.

I did do some tries, and I feel it seems a little biteasier and faster to use Camera Raw to do most of the pp. Are thereany disadvantages to do most of the pp in Camera Raw??.

For you reference, here is the link of one of the articles:http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/workflow_basic/workflow_basic.htm.

Thank you so much, again!!..

Comment #14

John down under wrote:.

Wondchoi wrote:.

Thank you so much, Ed Grenzig, and sjgcit, for your very clear anddetail explaining the process and difference..

I have done some research of processing the RAW. and again, I havesome more questions for you. by the way, I am using photoshop cs2 forpp my RAW and Jpg.

Some articles suggest that we should adjust the exposure, temperatureand tint in Camera Raw of photoshop CS2, and then open do the Blackand White Points, contrast, saturation, noise reduction, sharpeningin photoshop, not in Camera Raw. But I did notice that in Camera Raw,there are some options for you to adjust the contrast, saturation,sharping and etc. So, my question is: are there any differences to dothe contrast and saturation and etc. between Camera Raw andphotoshop?? I did do some tries, and I feel it seems a little biteasier and faster to use Camera Raw to do most of the pp. Are thereany disadvantages to do most of the pp in Camera Raw??.

No disadvantage that I know of. Ron doesn't explain why he only doesWB and exposure in ACR, then the rest in Photoshop. I think it'sbetter to do all that you can in ACR so that you're working on RAWdata, then you can still make other adjustments in Photoshop later,if you even need to. Sharpening is the exception for me as I prettymuch only do that at final output size..

Thanks! but one more question confusing me: you say it is better to work on RAW data then work in photoshop, does it mean working in Camera Raw using photoshop? Because after I adjust the exposure, tint and etc. in Camera Raw, and open the file in photoshop to do other adjustments like contrast and saturation, the file format is still .NEF, which is still a RAW file format, instead of JPG format. So, I wonder, do I still work on RAW data when I adjust the contrast and saturation in Photoshop with the .NEF file format? Or it is no longer RAW data even though it is still the .NEF format?.

For you reference, here is the link of one of the articles:http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/workflow_basic/workflow_basic.htm.

Thank you so much, again!!.

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #15

So, any knows if I work on .NEF format file which is the RAW file format from NikonD80 in Photoshop, do I still work on RAW data...

Comment #16

The RAW data format exists in ACR which is a separate program, a plug in for PS. ACR does not change the raw data (or NEF file) it just tags it with adjustments which are stored in a XMP sidecar file or the ACR database. These are saved by ACR..

If you then move this image information into PS for more PP it will be converted into a, for example, sRGB 8bit file (or a file based on your PS settings) inside of PS (RAW NEF is not an option in PS). This is no longer RAW data..

Then you must decide how to save the new PP image to disk from within PS. Many people choose to use PSD or Tiff non-compressed or lossless compressed formats which support layers..

For specific applications such as web images, or printing, you can out put to a different format such as jpeg, but these files are normally for temporary use and not saved. They PSD or TIFF file is saved for possible further PP..

Hope this helps.

Ed.

Wondchoi wrote:.

So, any knows if I work on .NEF format file which is the RAW fileformat from NikonD80 in Photoshop, do I still work on RAW data...

Comment #17

Hi John,.

John down under wrote:.

No disadvantage that I know of. Ron doesn't explain why he only doesWB and exposure in ACR, then the rest in Photoshop. I think it'sbetter to do all that you can in ACR so that you're working on RAWdata, then you can still make other adjustments in Photoshop later,if you even need to. Sharpening is the exception for me as I prettymuch only do that at final output size..

If you do panos, it is usually best to delay some processing until the stitching is done and then apply curves, local contrast, saturation, etc. when you see the entire pano. I use ACR mostly to do lens corrections, finalize the exposure and do some noise reduction..

I have done numerous experiments looking at adjustments in ACR vs Photoshop and have not seen any significant difference. Of course, I did PS PP before ACR existed. Panos kept me in practice with PS PP. To keep a single work flow, I also do single shot PP mostly in PS. PS steps usually allow you to switch back and forth on an adjustment using the preview box. I find this helpful.

PS PP also allows actions which I use for a lot of processing.Leonhttp://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm..

Comment #18

Leon Wittwer wrote:.

Hi John,.

John down under wrote:.

No disadvantage that I know of. Ron doesn't explain why he only doesWB and exposure in ACR, then the rest in Photoshop. I think it'sbetter to do all that you can in ACR so that you're working on RAWdata, then you can still make other adjustments in Photoshop later,if you even need to. Sharpening is the exception for me as I prettymuch only do that at final output size..

If you do panos, it is usually best to delay some processing untilthe stitching is done and then apply curves, local contrast,saturation, etc. when you see the entire pano. I use ACR mostly todo lens corrections, finalize the exposure and do some noisereduction.I have done numerous experiments looking at adjustments in ACR vsPhotoshop and have not seen any significant difference. Of course, Idid PS PP before ACR existed. Panos kept me in practice with PS PP.To keep a single work flow, I also do single shot PP mostly in PS.PS steps usually allow you to switch back and forth on an adjustmentusing the preview box. I find this helpful.

PS PP alsoallows actions which I use for a lot of processing.Leon.

Good points Leon, as usual. I use Lightroom rather than ACR and that provides more flexibility with going backwards and forwards through history states to see the differences, along with virtual copies that you can compare side by side as needed and easily synchronise settings from one to the other..

For most images, I agree that you'd be hard pressed to see a difference between changes in ACR vs Photoshop, especially if you're working with high bit images and not processing too aggressively. As you say, you have more control in Photoshop, but if ACR gives you adjustments you're happy with, then the job's done quickly and easily..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #19

Ed Grenzig wrote:.

The RAW data format exists in ACR which is a separate program, a plugin for PS. ACR does not change the raw data (or NEF file) it justtags it with adjustments which are stored in a XMP sidecar file orthe ACR database. These are saved by ACR..

If you're working on a DNG file, the adjustment settings are saved in the image file itself, just as Lightroom (and possibly ACR) saves soft changes to TIFF and JPEG files in the image files themselves..

If you then move this image information into PS for more PP it willbe converted into a, for example, sRGB 8bit file (or a file based onyour PS settings) inside of PS (RAW NEF is not an option in PS). Thisis no longer RAW data..

I thought when I used to use ACR (rather than Lightroom) that when I opened a RAW image for editing in PS it was initially in Photoshop's native format, so really PSD, even before saving from Photoshop to whatever format I wanted to use for the saved file. Maybe I remember incorrectly. Lightroom seems to only allow conversion to a format like PSD, TIFF, JPEG for editing in Photoshop..

Then you must decide how to save the new PP image to disk from withinPS. Many people choose to use PSD or Tiff non-compressed or losslesscompressed formats which support layers.For specific applications such as web images, or printing, you canout put to a different format such as jpeg, but these files arenormally for temporary use and not saved. They PSD or TIFF file issaved for possible further PP..

Hope this helps.

Ed.

Wondchoi wrote:.

So, any knows if I work on .NEF format file which is the RAW fileformat from NikonD80 in Photoshop, do I still work on RAW data..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #20

What an excellent thread! This is the type of thread that the 'Beginners Forum' should contain!If I could add anything to this thread, I would, but it's all been covered.Except, I use Rawtherapee as a RAW processor........Now, on to the next 'What camera should I buy?' contribution.........

Comment #21

John.

John down under wrote:.

Ed Grenzig wrote:.

The RAW data format exists in ACR which is a separate program, a plugin for PS. ACR does not change the raw data (or NEF file) it justtags it with adjustments which are stored in a XMP sidecar file orthe ACR database. These are saved by ACR..

If you're working on a DNG file, the adjustment settings are saved inthe image file itself, just as Lightroom (and possibly ACR) savessoft changes to TIFF and JPEG files in the image files themselves..

Yes DNG is another RAW format which does contain both the RAW image data and the metadata. Kind of like the NEF + XMP file in the DNG..

But opening Tiff and Jpegs in ACR, is another story indeed, which gets very complex. There was just an entire thread on thishttp://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=26901087I tried to avoid that topic here since it really will complicate the discussion.There is a format called linear RGB, which comes into play..

If you then move this image information into PS for more PP it willbe converted into a, for example, sRGB 8bit file (or a file based onyour PS settings) inside of PS (RAW NEF is not an option in PS). Thisis no longer RAW data..

I thought when I used to use ACR (rather than Lightroom) that when Iopened a RAW image for editing in PS it was initially in Photoshop'snative format, so really PSD, even before saving from Photoshop towhatever format I wanted to use for the saved file. Maybe I rememberincorrectly. Lightroom seems to only allow conversion to a formatlike PSD, TIFF, JPEG for editing in Photoshop..

You really do not open a RAW file in PS. The RAW file first gets opened in ACR and then ACR will transfer the converted image data to PS in some PS native format, but it is not RAW data, it may for example be RGB 16 bit, but I believe it has to do with the default work space settings that you choose to set up in PS. Then you save your image data in any format that you choose from within PS. But again, RAW is not one of the options to save from inside of PS. And, RAW data never gets into PS to begin with. The closest you can come is opening a RAW file from ACR as a smart object in PS, which allows you to go back to ACR and make future and new PP changes in ACR, that will be recognized and updated in PS..

It is my belief that the current versions of ACR and LR use the exact same RAW conversion software. I have read literature from Adobe on this, and it states that LR is updated at the same time that ACR is updated, because of this same RAW conversion program in both. I believe this same transfer of converted image data takes place inside of LR. So some of the edits in LR are working on RAW data, while some are working on converted data, but I am not intimately familiar with LR..

I also believe that you can transfer your image directly from LR to PS with out first saving it in a format like PSD,TIFF, JPEG, etc. This seems as if it would be the preferred way..

Ed.

Then you must decide how to save the new PP image to disk from withinPS. Many people choose to use PSD or Tiff non-compressed or losslesscompressed formats which support layers.For specific applications such as web images, or printing, you canout put to a different format such as jpeg, but these files arenormally for temporary use and not saved. They PSD or TIFF file issaved for possible further PP..

Hope this helps.

Ed.

Wondchoi wrote:.

So, any knows if I work on .NEF format file which is the RAW fileformat from NikonD80 in Photoshop, do I still work on RAW data..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #22

Ed Grenzig wrote:.

Yes DNG is another RAW format which does contain both the RAW imagedata and the metadata. Kind of like the NEF + XMP file in the DNG.But opening Tiff and Jpegs in ACR, is another story indeed, whichgets very complex. There was just an entire thread on thishttp://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=26901087I tried to avoid that topic here since it really will complicate thediscussion..

Fair enough Ed..

There is a format called linear RGB, which comes into play..

If you then move this image information into PS for more PP it willbe converted into a, for example, sRGB 8bit file (or a file based onyour PS settings) inside of PS (RAW NEF is not an option in PS). Thisis no longer RAW data..

I thought when I used to use ACR (rather than Lightroom) that when Iopened a RAW image for editing in PS it was initially in Photoshop'snative format, so really PSD, even before saving from Photoshop towhatever format I wanted to use for the saved file. Maybe I rememberincorrectly. Lightroom seems to only allow conversion to a formatlike PSD, TIFF, JPEG for editing in Photoshop..

You really do not open a RAW file in PS. The RAW file first getsopened in ACR and then ACR will transfer the converted image datato PS in some PS native format, but it is not RAW data, it may forexample be RGB 16 bit, but I believe it has to do with the defaultwork space settings that you choose to set up in PS. Then you saveyour image data in any format that you choose from within PS. Butagain, RAW is not one of the options to save from inside of PS. And,RAW data never gets into PS to begin with..

I understood that. My point was that I thought the image format when wanting to edit in Photoshop was PSD rather than a JPEG or TIFF you were suggesting. As I said, I could be wrong as I don't use ACR any more and I don't know what settings are available for output to Photoshop. If it's the same as LR, then PSD and TIFF will both be output options for Photoshop editing..

The closest you can comeis opening a RAW file from ACR as a smart object in PS, which allowsyou to go back to ACR and make future and new PP changes in ACR, thatwill be recognized and updated in PS..

It is my belief that the current versions of ACR and LR use the exactsame RAW conversion software. I have read literature from Adobe onthis, and it states that LR is updated at the same time that ACR isupdated, because of this same RAW conversion program in both. Ibelieve this same transfer of converted image data takes place insideof LR. So some of the edits in LR are working on RAW data, while someare working on converted data, but I am not intimately familiar withLR..

I also believe that you can transfer your image directly from LR toPS with out first saving it in a format like PSD,TIFF, JPEG, etc.This seems as if it would be the preferred way..

I've just looked and that's not how it works. Lightroom External Editing settings require you to choose either TIFF or PSD for the file format for editing in Photoshop (when exporting from the RAW original). Alternatively, you can additionally export as a JPEG if you prefer and then open that file in Photoshop, but it's a two step process. Lightroom allows for automatically opening that JPEG in Photoshop when exported, but it's still two steps, which introduces more errors..

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #23

John down under wrote:.

I understood that. My point was that I thought the image format whenwanting to edit in Photoshop was PSD rather than a JPEG or TIFF youwere suggesting. As I said, I could be wrong as I don't use ACR anymore and I don't know what settings are available for output toPhotoshop. If it's the same as LR, then PSD and TIFF will both beoutput options for Photoshop editing..

What I believe is the following: An image format is something like sRGB 8bit, (or example ProPhoto 16 bit), as it exists in the computer memory for editing, when it is saved to disk it is then saved in various "file formats" such as jpeg, tiff, psd, etc. which may or may not involve lossless or lossy compression. But when re-opened in memory for editing it is back to sRGB 8bit. The image will be the same as before as long as lossy compression was not used. Jpeg, tiff, psd, etc, exist on disk, not in computer memory while editing in PS. They are used for storage of the image data, not during editing in progress..

What I believe is that when an image is transferred from ACR to PS it opens as the work space image format as defined in PS, which may be for example sRGB 8bit. At this point the image has no association with terms such as jpeg, tiff, psd, etc..

I've just looked and that's not how it works. Lightroom ExternalEditing settings require you to choose either TIFF or PSD for thefile format for editing in Photoshop (when exporting from the RAWoriginal). Alternatively, you can additionally export as a JPEG ifyou prefer and then open that file in Photoshop, but it's a two stepprocess. Lightroom allows for automatically opening that JPEG inPhotoshop when exported, but it's still two steps, which introducesmore errors..

I thought you could transfer directly from ACR to PS without first saving the image to disk in some file format such as jpeg, tiff, psd, etc. But since I don't have LR I am not sure. If you can't then I would definetly choose a lossless compression or no compression format, for transfer..

Ed.

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #24

Correction to last post:.

I thought you could transfer directly from *(omit ACR)* LR to PS without first saving the image to disk in some file format such as jpeg, tiff, psd, etc. But since I don't have LR I am not sure. If you can't then I would definetly choose a lossless compression or no compression format, for transfer..

Ed..

Comment #25

Ed Grenzig wrote:.

Correction to last post:.

I thought you could transfer directly from *(omit ACR)* LR to PSwithout first saving the image to disk in some file format such asjpeg, tiff, psd, etc. But since I don't have LR I am not sure. If youcan't then I would definetly choose a lossless compression or nocompression format, for transfer..

Ed.

Agreed Ed, I fyou don't want to lose IQ through compression. I thought you'd be able to go straight from the RAW in LR to a format in Photoshop without having to go via a saved file. That may be what happens when choosing Edit in Photoshop from LR. However, LR still saves a TIFF file before you even do anything with the file in Photoshop..

Some interesting issues have been raised in this thread. Luckily not knowing for sure isn't life and death! LOL.

Cheers from John from Adelaide, South AustraliaJohn Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.auCanon 40D, Canon 20D & Fuji F10..

Comment #26

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