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1st Panorama - Where'd I go wrong? (1 image)
This was taken on Saturday night at Station Square in Pittsburgh. I have read and saved Leung's tutorial, but I didn't have a chance to reread it or print it before we left, so I was kind of going on memory. Stitched in photoshop..

Here's what I know I did wrong: I used a tripod, which I thought was level but it wasn't. It hard to tell because the D40 doesn't have grid lines in the viewfinder, and the level on the tripod was covered by the camera grip. I was using the self-timer, but it has to be reset for each shot, and I occasionally forgot. At some point I will buy the remote, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I used mostly auto focus except where it was pointed at the sky and then I used manual focus. I missed completely on one of the manual focus shots in the middle..

Here's what I thought I got right: consistent exposure: manual mode, matrix metering, 18-55 @ 55, f8, 15 seconds. shot horizontally because there was a fence in front of me. Shot it raw, but just converted because I don't really know what I'm doing on processing..

Question: Why does it look so funky? I know why it's curved, and I know why that one shot in the middle isn't in focus, but I don't know why the seams look so obvious and why the exposures all look different when I'm assuming they shouldn't. Full EXIF is embedded..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Thanks in advance!JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comments (25)

Jboschan wrote:.

Question: Why does it look so funky? I know why it's curved, and Iknow why that one shot in the middle isn't in focus, but I don't knowwhy the seams look so obvious and why the exposures all lookdifferent when I'm assuming they shouldn't. Full EXIF is embedded..

My workplace can't see photobucket so I can only guess for the moment..

If you're getting inconsistent exposure but EVERYTHING in the camera is manual and invariant, then the culprit is the light outside the camera. I've faced many panoramas where a passing cloud changed the exposure by well over a full stop between each shot. If you can rule that out, the second culprit is to look at vignetting. Usually, small apertures have little to worry about here, but it can happen. Lastly, if the coloring seems affected, then you forgot to lock down the white balance..

[ e d @ h a l l e yc c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/..

Comment #1

Jboschan wrote:.

This was taken on Saturday night at Station Square in Pittsburgh. Ihave read and saved Leung's tutorial, but I didn't have a chance toreread it or print it before we left, so I was kind of going onmemory. Stitched in photoshop..

Here's what I know I did wrong: I used a tripod, which I thought waslevel but it wasn't. It hard to tell because the D40 doesn't havegrid lines in the viewfinder, and the level on the tripod was coveredby the camera grip. I was using the self-timer, but it has to bereset for each shot, and I occasionally forgot. At some point I willbuy the remote, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I used mostlyauto focus except where it was pointed at the sky and then I usedmanual focus. I missed completely on one of the manual focus shots inthe middle..

Here's what I thought I got right: consistent exposure: manual mode,matrix metering, 18-55 @ 55, f8, 15 seconds. shot horizontallybecause there was a fence in front of me. Shot it raw, but justconverted because I don't really know what I'm doing on processing..

That's your problem. Inconsistent process of raw files. When I do panos I always shoot manual jpeg to assure the exposures are consistent. If you do use raw, you must make sure they are all processed identically..

And even though a fence was in your way, it's still better to shoot vertical and get more sky and foreground than you need, this way you can correct uneven horizons by applying a rotation and then crop the image down to something workable. The shot linked to below could have been accomplished in 3 horizontal shots with at 10mm, but instead this is over 20 vertical shots at 24mm rotated and cropped as necessary. I figure at most only the center vertical third of the image as my working area for each shot. http://www.pbase.com/indyboosler/image/89428587..

Comment #2

I did not actually process the raw files. ViewNX reads all of my in-camera settings, and if converted without modification they come out exactly as the jpgs would have. I shot in RAW so that I'd have the flexibility to change them, but I don't actually know what I should be doing to them.JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #3

IMac, therefore iAm wrote:.

That's your problem. Inconsistent process of raw files. When I dopanos I always shoot manual jpeg to assure the exposures areconsistent. If you do use raw, you must make sure they are allprocessed identically..

Ah, good spot, iMac..

In Bibble, it's easy to process one image of a set, and then "copy" the RAW processing parameters to all others of the set. (However, some of the more automagical image processing features like PerfectlyClear(tm) are not visibly parameterized and therefore not consistent between frames.) A friend just got into RAW and he ran into the same problem..

[ e d @ h a l l e yc c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/..

Comment #4

Off topic, but I would love to see one from the top of the incline. I went to school at Pitt and I miss the city .

I'm going up there in a few months and I'll be trying to get that shot. Unfortunately for me the people I'm going with want to do the incline during the day...

Comment #5

Jboschan wrote:.

I did not actually process the raw files. ViewNX reads all of myin-camera settings, and if converted without modification they comeout exactly as the jpgs would have..

My guess is that they're not. Why? I can't tell you, but I would go back and try shooting jpeg and see how it comes out...

Comment #6

I don't believe different processing of the raw files is the issue. If the raw proicessor worked as described, and the image were shot with exposure locked as he claimed, the frames would have all be processed the same. Indeed if you skip over the darker overlaps, the general sky density is quite similar (except where glow from adjacent lights affect the vicinity). In other words, I think the consistency of exposures and sky density is as good as one would get for this scene..

I think the real problem is the complete lack at any attempt at blending by Photoshop. Jamie, you didn't say if the was CS3 or an earlier version. If an earlier version, this result is not surprising. CS3 improved things considerably and (in my experience) makes a credible stab at blending. If this is CS3 it's a surprisingly poor result; I would have expected better. Perhaps it is the difficult subject matter..

At any rate, you could process this in better software (consult other threads for suggestions) or try a less challenging pano for your first attempt (yes, you get a second chance at a first attempt!). I'd suggest a daylight outdoor scene with good contrasty lighting and distinct objects. Avoid subjects in the foreground to minimize complications with parallax. I see no need to complicate things by shooting in raw unless you are versed in it give yourself one challenge at a time. Make sure you lock down white balance, exposure, zoom and focus, and shoot jpeg for now. Use the tripod or not unless you are using a pano head the tripod doesn't provide an outstanding advantage for a straightforward landscape..

Use the results of this test to firm up and hone your skills, and gradually ramp up to more ambitious night-time panos. That'd be my suggestion..

Http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv..

Comment #7

Dsjtecserv wrote:.

I don't believe different processing of the raw files is the issue.If the raw proicessor worked as described, and the image were shotwith exposure locked as he claimed, the frames would have all beprocessed the same. Indeed if you skip over the darker overlaps, thegeneral sky density is quite similar (except where glow from adjacentlights affect the vicinity). In other words, I think the consistencyof exposures and sky density is as good as one would get for thisscene..

Yes, the raw-processing should not have been the issue. The reason I felt I could shoot in RAW. even though I don't usually, is because the software will give me the exact same jpgs if I want it to. The meter was not happy with me using the same settings across the scene, so I'm guessing that it was an unevenly lit scene, which makes sense between all the different buildings with their own lights and such..

I think the real problem is the complete lack at any attempt atblending by Photoshop. Jamie, you didn't say if the was CS3 or anearlier version. If an earlier version, this result is notsurprising. CS3 improved things considerably and (in my experience)makes a credible stab at blending. If this is CS3 it's a surprisinglypoor result; I would have expected better. Perhaps it is thedifficult subject matter..

It was CS3, but that doesn't mean I did it right. I've literally had cs3 for two days. I did the file>script>load images thing and it had an auto-stitch or something option. I'm guessing there are other and probably better ways to do it, but it was the first one I saw, so I tried it..

At any rate, you could process this in better software (consult otherthreads for suggestions) or try a less challenging pano for yourfirst attempt (yes, you get a second chance at a first attempt!). I'dsuggest a daylight outdoor scene with good contrasty lighting anddistinct objects. Avoid subjects in the foreground to minimizecomplications with parallax. I see no need to complicate things byshooting in raw unless you are versed in it give yourself onechallenge at a time. Make sure you lock down white balance, exposure,zoom and focus, and shoot jpeg for now. Use the tripod or not unless you are using a pano head the tripod doesn't provide anoutstanding advantage for a straightforward landscape..

Use the results of this test to firm up and hone your skills, andgradually ramp up to more ambitious night-time panos. That'd be mysuggestion..

Thanks for commenting and your suggestions make sense. I am sort of trying to try everything these days. It's hard to find time for daytime shooting in general, what with classes and homework and such, but I hope to give it a try at some point. I currently shoot in jpeg 98% of the time, except I figure if it's a difficult scene the RAW can't hurt because later when I figure out how PS works I can go back..

Http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv.

JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #8

Jamie:.

The panorama stitching tool in Photoshop is called Photomerge, which is probably what you used. It is much improved over previous versions in CS3 but is still fairly rudimentary. If you are interested exploring panoramas you might try some other free alternatives to get a taste of what is possible with more specialized software. Autostitch and Hugin are free; the former is simpler and provides few options, that latter is more sophisticated but has a more daunting interface. You can download a free trial version of PTGui, which I like, and possibly some of the other paid packages..

It's clear that you have already done some reading, since you are already familiar with the basic principles. The next thing is to go out and shoot some panos with subject matter likely to give a good result, practicing the techniques you know, and refining them through experience. Then, I suspect, you will really catch the pano bug!.

Davehttp://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv..

Comment #9

Note you can buy a level that goes in the flash hotshoe, this will allow you to setup the panorama level. go to b&h and do a search for "hot shoe levels" in cameras. there are 12 of them..

To do panoramas-.

For panoramas- -use tripod. you must keep it level with the horizon. if your tripod does not have a level builtin then buy one that slides into your flash hotshoe. again make a max effort to get the camera level..

-for exposure. set the exposure by pressing halfway and noteing the fstop and shutter speed. you are trying to find the brightest part of you panorama scene to be. once you have found the brightest check the fstop and shutter speed. put camera into manual metering mode and use those settings. do not change them for any part of the panorama..

-lens selection. I shoot mine with a 20mm. tried a 35mm didn't work, the individual shots didn't overlap. the angle of view wasn't wide enough. note: SHOOT THE LENS VERTICALLY. this is the only way to get some vertical scene, otherwise the panorama will be shaped like a hotdog.

In vertical you are cutting your angle of view way down. my tripod has degrees engraved in the mount, I was shooting at only a 15 degree spread and in looking at the shots before stiching there wasn't that much overlap. I later shot panoramas with 35mm 50mm; the hot dog effect was more pronounced. the panorama itself did work..

-determine in advance the center point of the scene and try to go X number of shots on each side of it. for me with my setup a 120 degree scene is 7 shots; the center and 3 on each side. if I go with a 35mm lens then a 120degree scene will take 13 shots. no matter what lens you use realize that you are adding only 33% new scene with every shot, the rest is overlap for the right and left adjoining shots. the only exceptions are the end shots in the whole scene. it is possible to add another row above and/or below the first one.

You must make sure that there are no gaps..

- I stick my hand in front of the lens and shoot, then shoot the panorama, the 7 shots, then put hand in front of lens and shoot. later I know that everything between hands is the panorama..

-i have used cs2 or the panorama factory software to make the panorama. for either couldn't be simpler simply select the shots and it does the work. this is where using a level pays off. the software is leveling the scene to make the long rectangcal, but if the scene was not as level as possible in the first place the vertical becomes less and less(you end up with hotdog shape). so having the tripod and camera level is very important. also when mount and shooting vertically make sure the camera really is vertical, carefully check by looking threw the viewfinder.



-on focusing- what I do is to simply preset the 20mm lems at infinity, because of depth of field everything from 5.64ft to infinity is in focus at f11.0 distance 200ft. you can also use a hyperfocal focus setup. but thanks to the DOF table, just setting the lens at infinity is simpler. -i left WB alone, that is set at AWB; or you can use a preset setting like sunny or cloudy, but once set donot change it till panorama shots are done..

-online depth of field calculator available here- http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html.

-for panoramas, the software I use is either panorama factory or PTGui or cs2. the one that works best for me is PTGui. I have since gotton PTGuiPRO, expensive but worth it. has many features and abilities that the other software does not have, including the ability to process 360 and 720degree sphereical panoramas, plus many projection types...

Comment #10

GaryDeM wrote:.

Note you can buy a level that goes in the flash hotshoe, this willallow you to setup the panorama level. go to b&h and do a search for"hot shoe levels" in cameras. there are 12 of them..

I will look into one..

To do panoramas-for panoramas- -use tripod. you must keep it level with the horizon.if your tripod does not have a level builtin then buy one that slidesinto your flash hotshoe. again make a max effort to get the cameralevel.-for exposure. set the exposure by pressing halfway and noteing thefstop and shutter speed. you are trying to find the brightest part ofyou panorama scene to be. once you have found the brightest check thefstop and shutter speed.

Do not change them for any part of the panorama.-lens selection. I shoot mine with a 20mm. tried a 35mm didn't work,the individual shots didn't overlap. the angle of view wasn't wideenough. note: SHOOT THE LENS VERTICALLY.

This is why I went to a 20mm. in vertical you are cuttingyour angle of view way down. my tripod has degrees engraved in themount, I was shooting at only a 15 degree spread and in looking atthe shots before stiching there wasn't that much overlap. I latershot panoramas with 35mm 50mm; the hot dog effect was morepronounced. the panorama itself did work.-determine in advance the center point of the scene and try to go Xnumber of shots on each side of it.

If I go with a 35mmlens then a 120degree scene will take 13 shots. no matter what lensyou use realize that you are adding only 33% new scene with everyshot, the rest is overlap for the right and left adjoining shots. theonly exceptions are the end shots in the whole scene. it is possibleto add another row above and/or below the first one. this would helpthe vertical look especially if you are using a 50mm or longer.formultiple rows are the same as 1 row, but you know have to overlap onthe vertical as well as the horizontal.

For either couldn't be simpler simply select the shots andit does the work. this is where using a level pays off. the softwareis leveling the scene to make the long rectangcal, but if the scenewas not as level as possible in the first place the vertical becomesless and less(you end up with hotdog shape). so having the tripod andcamera level is very important. also when mount and shootingvertically make sure the camera really is vertical, carefully checkby looking threw the viewfinder.

You can also use ahyperfocal focus setup. but thanks to the DOF table, just setting thelens at infinity is simpler. -i left WB alone, that is set at AWB; oryou can use a preset setting like sunny or cloudy, but once set donotchange it till panorama shots are done.-online depth of field calculator available here-http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html-for panoramas, the software I use is either panorama factory orPTGui or cs2. the one that works best for me is PTGui. I have sincegotton PTGuiPRO, expensive but worth it.

I will try to keep this stuff in mind. Thanks for the suggestions. I am not able to spend more money on software, as I'm a college student and I need to eat and survive and save up for spring break and such. The rest I will see what I can do about.JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #11

Dsjtecserv wrote:.

Jamie:.

The panorama stitching tool in Photoshop is called Photomerge, whichis probably what you used. It is much improved over previous versionsin CS3 but is still fairly rudimentary. If you are interestedexploring panoramas you might try some other free alternatives to geta taste of what is possible with more specialized software.Autostitch and Hugin are free; the former is simpler and provides fewoptions, that latter is more sophisticated but has a more dauntinginterface. You can download a free trial version of PTGui, which Ilike, and possibly some of the other paid packages..

Thanks for the software suggestions. I the PTGui website said something about the free version involving a watermark, so I decided not to use it. As a college student, I can't really be spending money on software..

It's clear that you have already done some reading, since you arealready familiar with the basic principles. The next thing is to goout and shoot some panos with subject matter likely to give a goodresult, practicing the techniques you know, and refining them throughexperience. Then, I suspect, you will really catch the pano bug!.

I will try to get out more in the upcoming weeks to shoot. It's difficult because I'm so busy with classes, and also because it's so cold and nasty most of the time. I will definitely try a lot more panos though!.

Davehttp://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv.

JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #12

And for best panoramas you normaly have to check the individual nodal point of your camera and lens combination..

A little bit simplified a special point between the center of the camerasensor and the lens center axis must be +/- in the middel rotary axis of your tripod. If you have a camera with a tripodplug outside the middel, you can use a adapter like this.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

This is all the more important if you have near and far away objekts in the panorama..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window..

Comment #13

You have a camera, you have Photoshop CS3 - you have everything you need for panos. Yes, you 'can' use a tripod, you 'can' use a Pano head, and you 'can' use other software... but you don't need any of them. Photoshop CS3 does an EXCELLENT job of merging panos. The more sample points you have the better it does (granted it takes longer too)..

Does the D40 have an option to shoot Raw and jpeg at the same time? I really think if you were shooting jpeg and had more images to sample, your pano would have come out a lot better..

I will try to keep this stuff in mind. Thanks for the suggestions. Iam not able to spend more money on software, as I'm a college studentand I need to eat and survive and save up for spring break and such.The rest I will see what I can do about.JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/.

Some cool cats that can use your helphttp://www.wildlife-sanctuary.org.

Even if you can't donate, please help spread the word...

Comment #14

Looks like what happens when someone tries a stich with auto white balance on. Does your raw processing step simulate auto white balacing? You should set your white balance to a consistent level like "cloudy" for each picture..

Also are you using Photoshop CS3 to process this? If so you can use it to save mess ups like this using the Auto-Blend layers command to have it automatically blend the layers and get rid of the seams while stiching, if each image is still it's own layer...

Comment #15

Ed Halley wrote:.

My workplace can't see photobucket so I can only guess for the moment..

Okay, now that I am viewing from home, let me add one MORE thing to the mix. Lens flare! Bright night time lights account for more flare and unevenness than you might expect. As you pan across the scene, the angles between each light and your lens changes. These changes can influence how dark the dark sky or dark details will appear, even if the physical exposure is the same..

This is very similar to the challenges of using a polarizer with a wide angle lens, or using a polarizer when stitching multiple images. With the bright night lights you have there, and the deep dark sky in your darkest image, it made it more obvious to me. I've dealt with very similar issues. Add a tight lens hood to the mix, once you decide to try night panoramitry again..

[ e d @ h a l l e yc c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/..

Comment #16

Gmcbay wrote:.

Looks like what happens when someone tries a stich with auto whitebalance on. Does your raw processing step simulate auto whitebalacing? You should set your white balance to a consistent levellike "cloudy" for each picture..

OOOhhh, excellent point!..

Comment #17

IMac, therefore iAm wrote:.

You have a camera, you have Photoshop CS3 - you have everything youneed for panos. Yes, you 'can' use a tripod, you 'can' use a Panohead, and you 'can' use other software... but you don't need any ofthem. Photoshop CS3 does an EXCELLENT job of merging panos. The moresample points you have the better it does (granted it takes longertoo)..

I fullly agree. I take hand-held panos all the time with a Canon S5 point and shoot and I've never had a problem stitching them together with great results in CS3..

Just load every image into PS3, drag them one by one into a single image so each is it's own layer (just drag and drop from each image into one container image), then select Edit->Auto-Align Layers then Edit->Auto-Blend Layers, voila! Easy as pie. The better the perspective and the closer the exposure settings is for each image the easier Photoshop's job is, but Photoshop does a great job even if your input images have significant problems...

Comment #18

IMac, therefore iAm wrote:.

You have a camera, you have Photoshop CS3 - you have everything youneed for panos. Yes, you 'can' use a tripod, you 'can' use a Panohead, and you 'can' use other software... but you don't need any ofthem. Photoshop CS3 does an EXCELLENT job of merging panos. The moresample points you have the better it does (granted it takes longertoo)..

I assumed this to be true, but I wanted to respond to the software suggestions above. I think I've now figured out that there's more than one way to merge panos in photoshop, and I know the one I picked wasn't photomerge. I will try again now that I've figured out where photomerge is and repost later tonight..

Does the D40 have an option to shoot Raw and jpeg at the same time? Ireally think if you were shooting jpeg and had more images to sample,your pano would have come out a lot better..

Yes, but only jpeg+basic, not higher levels of jpeg..

I will try to keep this stuff in mind. Thanks for the suggestions. Iam not able to spend more money on software, as I'm a college studentand I need to eat and survive and save up for spring break and such.The rest I will see what I can do about.JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/.

Some cool cats that can use your helphttp://www.wildlife-sanctuary.org.

Even if you can't donate, please help spread the word..

JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #19

Gmcbay wrote:.

Looks like what happens when someone tries a stich with auto whitebalance on. Does your raw processing step simulate auto whitebalacing? You should set your white balance to a consistent levellike "cloudy" for each picture..

I used "incandescent" white balance on all of the shots. I had both Incandescent and Cloudy recommended to me, so I tried both. The former looked much better..

Also are you using Photoshop CS3 to process this? If so you can useit to save mess ups like this using the Auto-Blend layers command tohave it automatically blend the layers and get rid of the seams whilestiching, if each image is still it's own layer..

I am using PS CS3, however I don't know it that well. I've only had it for the weekend so far. I realize now that the way I found to merge them (via the search function in ps) was none of the ways that people have suggested in this thread, so I'm going to try again and repost later tonight..

JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #20

I remerged, now that I know about the photomerge tool. I think it looks better, but I'm not sure. Obviously it's still curved and such..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #21

That looks a lot better. The curvature isn't uncommon - that's why it's real important to pay close attention to how you hold an pan your camera, and to shoot vertical to get more image at the top and bottom than you need to allow for rotating and cropping..

Some cool cats that can use your helphttp://www.wildlife-sanctuary.org.

Even if you can't donate, please help spread the word...

Comment #22

That's about what I would have expected from CS3. Blending is now implemented, although it is uninspired. But this shows, I think, that there was no problem with disparity in exposure or white balance between the different frames; it was all in the blending provided by the software..

People often cite "stitching" errors for issues that are actually related to blending. Blending can be much more challenging than mere stitiching, especially when there is movement between frames or during the exposure, or when things like the sky are very uniform and would show even minor inconsistencies. There are several sophisticated blending applications that take different approaches, sometimes with very different results. The availablity of good blending routines in pano software often has more influence on whether the picture is regarded as pleasing and successful. One prime consideration in selecting software should be whether it allows a choice of different blending routines. Software that provides for output in separate layers, to allow for manual blending, is also of value..

Davehttp://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv..

Comment #23

Have you used the Lens Correction features in PS before? If not, I won't go into it here as that's a whole barrel of monkeys to get into. Using that though and a few of PS's other tools, you can still fix the majority of the curvature issues..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window..

Comment #24

I have not tried them before, but that's really cool! I will add that to my (long) list of things to learn to do in photoshop.JamieD40, 18-55mm, 55-200mm VRhttp://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/Jboschan/..

Comment #25

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